any wolf trapper ?

[Dusty]

You make a good point: the pups may indeed be _hunting_. What they aren't doing is killing. That may or may not hold up where you are. No experience there, but I think pups do kill deer and caribou in other parts of AK.

Just to clarify, when I say "pup" I mean "less than a year old," not "cute fuzzy little thing." They are the same size as the adults. I know you are on the same page, Musher, but I often confuse people with that terminology.

When the snow is deep enough for them to be moose hunting the pups are big.

Don't your wolves eat moose year-round? If not, what do they switch to?

8 wolves must wear down a moose much quicker than 4

I don't think there's much wearing down. A pair of wolves is going to eat any moose that they decide to - healthy, sick, adult, calf, cow, bull, snow, water, whatever.

How important do you think "teaching" is to the overall health of the pack.

Wild guess, but I think it is important. That's my guess as to why the pups spend a year or so on the sidelines. Killing moose is dangerous work. Of the several hundred wolf carcasses I've looked at, most (around 1/2?) had something important (ribs, hips, legs, jaws, skulls) broken and more-or-less healed. I presume that I don't usually get to see the slow learners.

I'm not sure what happens to the pups when Ma and Pa get killed say in late winter. Wild guess 2: most of em figure it out and do OK, a few get killed trying to find a new pack, and a few make it to a new pack.

Does pack size affect success rate or energy use in kills?

I guess I'd have to take that back to the point you brought up - if FINDING moose is limiting, yea, probably. If actually killing them is the issue, I doubt it.

[musher]

Wolves around here eat what is easiest and safest. That means that they eat beaver as much as possible. The deer range has expanded considerably and the wolves are hitting them hard. They might nab a calf moose in the spring and summer but I don't think that wolf predation is a major moose concern prior to deep snow. I have heard of them killing smaller bears and I do know of one instance where they hassled a hibernating bear on my line. It was at least a pack of 5 ('cause that's how many I caught.) I have found where they hunt hares and I think they hunt them all the time. Actually anytime they are moving as a group I feel they are hunting. I also think they will kill and eat anything they can.

While I don't know if a couple of wolves can take any moose, I do think that it will take them longer to do it. There must be a time that they have to get some food into themselves to keep up the harassment.

I believe that wolves wear down their prey. Several times I have been told of a person seeing a panicked deer running down the road. Minutes later a wolf is jogging along the trail. I think the wolves relay each other. I have also been told and seen videos of winter moose being pushed into the alders or on the ice. If the pack is large its a 24 hour story. If the pack is small it can take a couple of weeks. A month ago on the Quebec forum a poster had pics of a butt bitten moose. It wasn't a quick kill.

What I think happens to a pack that loses its Alphas is that the pack stops being cohesive and might break up. The wandering ones get hungry and end up in a snare at a bait station. If that doesn't happen another wolf pack might accept them or kill them. If they're lucky they make it through winter, find another lobo of the opposite sex and start a new pack. I have no scientific facts to back the above.

All surmised I think Kipling is correct in saying a wolf in numbers is a safer/healthier wolf.

From FH's PM: Alpha04 sets are bait stations where the bait is cut in small pieces so that the wolves must travel alot to get all the meat. He uses #9 wire tied high with 1/8 wire and Keeflock locks. Snares are set more than 100 feet from the baits. He also says that the Alpha's trail is 50-75 feet to the side of the main wolf trail. If you wish to catch the dominent wolves you must set your snares there.

[trappnman]

very informative


one comment- after running hounds for years- I think that moose being chased out onto the ice are going there becasue thats where they went- the wolves like hounds pursue, but don't determine direction of prey unless up close and personal. FWIW

[Dusty]

While I don't know if a couple of wolves can take any moose, I do think that it will take them longer to do it. There must be a time that they have to get some food into themselves to keep up the harassment.

I think you underestimate their ability. Trying to "finish off" a moose is a human thing. It's simpler to pull a few hunks off and camp out a day or two while it dies, if you aren't hungry to begin with.

I believe that wolves wear down their prey.

I don't think they have to. Every winter I find several kills out on the ice. I fly these places often, and usually have a pretty good idea of the moose and wolves that were there a few days before. If the wolves are hungry, they just kill whatever moose they happen to see wherever it's standing. They have the ability - even in small packs (I've been flying over a pair - is that still a pack? - about once a week for a couple months now) - to kill any moose, any time, under any circumstances. I see more summer kills in the thick stuff - winter kills, when the wolves are hungry, happen wherever they want it to.

I have also been told and seen videos of winter moose being pushed into the alders or on the ice.

That's the moose's fault. They end up the same place when a bear or a person is chasing them. Here, at least, moose spend a lot of time on the ice - presumably to avoid deep snow. A kill on the ice, here, is generally a moose that wasn't pushed at all.

From FH's PM: Alpha04 sets are bait stations where the bait is cut in small pieces so that the wolves must travel alot to get all the meat. He uses #9 wire tied high with 1/8 wire and Keeflock locks. Snares are set more than 100 feet from the baits. He also says that the Alpha's trail is 50-75 feet to the side of the main wolf trail. If you wish to catch the dominent wolves you must set your snares there.

I'm becoming very convinced that your wolves are a different critter. I've never had much luck with baits, even moose quarters. I spent most of one spring relocating dead moose. It wasn't very productive. I sure don't think they'd spend time looking for tidbits.

I've followed lots of wolf tracks, from the air and ground, and I've never seen a wolf consistently stay off the main track. Some are skittish, some aren't, but they all travel pretty randomly - or at least that's what it looks like to me.

Wonder what the difference is? You have a more diverse ecosystem and more people, and probably more wolves/area than here. They have more food to choose from there? Just skittish about already-dead things here? (But, their own kills are a great place to catch them.) More people there, so - not sure why that would matter. More (or less??) crowded and worrying about other wolves?

Interesting! You should show up here some March - bring lots of wolf (and pike) gear! - and we'll sort this out.

[musher]

It would be a hoot and a half, Dusty. I'll haul them if you skin them!

Our wolves are plenty skittish. I don't like bait piles, small or large, for wolves either. Lots of guys do it though and they skin wolves. I find it is a method most useful for hungry loners/old wolves/pups. But people don't catch a dozen a year. They catch the odd one and their faith iin the method continues. If it was a sure fire method our wolves would be extinct as there are lots of bait stations.
Alpha04 has 2 packs on his line and he traps a few from both. He seems to have better than average success with his baiting technique.

Blind sets are my choice.

I believe that our wolves are smaller than yours. That might account for their having to work more for their moose.

We do have a much larger human population in our wolf territory than you do. When deer get chased out on the ice people see it. The next morning the deer is dead and eaten. The wolves wait until dark. I figure it's because of the cars/people. I've known of deer that stayed close to occupied camps/lumber yards. Once the people leave for the season or the shift changes the wolves move in. When I lived up North we had a couple of wolves hanging around the elementary school. They would sneak around after school hours. They were shot.

Tman, I agree that the prey determines where it will run. There's less snow on the ice due to the wind. It's also more slippery for the moose. Either way, when the pack decides you're what's for dinner you have a real problem.

[Dusty]

I'll haul them if you skin them!

As long as you are talking about the pike, you have a deal! I do the hauling - you'll be real comfy in the back of the airplane with a couple frozen wolves! Unlike lynx, at least fleas don't start hopping off when you set on one for awhile....

Blind sets are my choice.

Yea, mine too. I once had a wolf trapper tell me that catching wolves is easy - all you have to do is find the 9-inch circle in 570,000 square miles of AK that a wolf wants to step and plunk a trap down there. Took a couple years to sink in, but it works, and not just on wolves. After trapping them I find all my sets getting more and more subtle. I have a heck of a time making a good lynx cubby anymore!

[musher]

It's been a while since I've done any, but this sitting in back in a small plane mightn't be such a good idea - unless puke is a good wolf lure.

[Dusty]

Well, before I started sitting in the front and moving things around, I might have - maybe once - puked on wolf gear from the back. Didn't seem to help much, but it didn't really hurt anything (other than my delicate feeligs...) either.

[Stef]

Musher, who was the owner of the eaten alive moose pictures?

Think its a friend of yours in La Tuque, Qc?

Tell him to send me the pictures at ...

[e-mail]

and I'll post them here.....

Thanks

Stef

[Dusty]

magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0405/feature6/index.html

Slow kill up here a couple years back - but happened where the asshats on tour buses could see it. Seems all of em wanted NPS to finish off the moose - NPS found a set of balls somewhere - must have borrowed them - and let what happens happen. Natl Geographic showed up about Day 3.

[Stef]

On the picture(the last one) with the 3 wolves and the bear...

If you check the wolves tails.... no tails in between the legs there

Stef

[vttrapper]

Great Pics!!

frank

[musher]

It's not a buddy that has the pic. Can you remove it from the Quebec forum?

I've seen the geographic article. It's the real deal.

[Stef]

Ok musher... I'll do a little search and ask the guy who posted it.... Later!

Stef

[Stef]

Photo taken at the end of february 2005... Abitibi lake



1 week later!!!



( Pictures by Gilles Galarneau (Qc) )

Stef