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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 22, 2005 12:55:54 GMT -6
We are going to take this sucker waaaay off topic now...but Ricks post made me think of something... I set a lot more "big iron" this year than before, and was working on some coyotes. My traps kept creeping further from the attractor...mainly due to the big trap but some might have been me visualizing a larger animal's approach. I noticed two things. One, I was still catching reds and nearly all by the front foot. Two, nearly all of the coons and possums were caught by the back foot. (Big traps and back foot caught coon go together like peanut butter and jelly ) I also caught a few coyotes with small traps jammed right up on the hole with a small pattern. It is hard for me to believe that good canine trappers are missing many of either species due to set construction. Now maybe location is a different story...
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Post by blakcoyote on Jan 22, 2005 13:06:03 GMT -6
Steve,good topic.I think the factors are different depending on the area.I've been trapping canines since 89,not a big time frame to get the whole picture on the coyote/fox population,but a little insight.When I first started trapping canines I was mostly catching fox.The first couple years learning by trial and error,catching about 10 fox a season,the first couple years.The like a switch I was up to 30-35 fox each year consitantly,setting the same areas.Knowing that coyotes were around,I started changing my approach,ie,trap placement,size.Anyway I caught a few 4-5 a year along with the same number of 30-35 fox.Then I believe around 96 my area got pounded with mange in the redfox population,I was maybe getting 1 good fox to 9 mangy ones.The next year,the trapping was slow,a couple fox and the 5 or 6 coyotes,then my coyote catch went up to around 20 over a few years to the present.My fox catch was pretty much non existant,2-4 each year,to zero up until 2 years ago,and now I'm getting and seeing a few more fox,but not where I usually catch them,but in areas that do produce coyotes on my line,I just dont catch the fox when coyotes are in a particular area,I think the fox step aside and let the coyotes come through doing there thing,then when they moved off to the next farm,the fox are out and about.The farming practices in the areas I trap,hasnt changed much if at all,but where farms have shut down,the fields are usually rented,to other farmers,or left to go into weeds like the CRP program.These areas produce the coyotes for me but instead of reds,I'm catching greys.Where I'm going with this,I dont really know,it's just observations for my particular area.And my thinking about the flip flop of coyote/fox populations in my area,is that,the fox while trying to overcome the mange epidemic,coyotes moved in filling a void,and with more competition for available food,the fox have been slower making a comeback.I think coyotes are more adaptable to changes in there enviroment,where as fox are not,or are slower to respond to that change,even if that change seems slight in our eye,like a farm going to weeds.I was also just talking today to another long time trapper,who is a retired forest ranger,and he made a comment about how he noticed the low rabbit numbers these days,he could remember years ago like you,going rabbit hunting with a bunch of guys and making a killing.So another theory,to this puzzle could be the fact of the foxes smaller home range,and smaller prey base,where as the coyote doesnt suffer as dramatically from low prey populations,due to there larger home range and there ability to expand if needed to sustain there lively hood.It's almost like the coyote can think outside the box,where the fox is stuck in his,or his reluctance to expand or maybe there more the homebody,and the coyote is or has the ability to be a roamer if it becomes a necessity.I'm ramblin now so I'll leave it at that.Good thought provoking post though.
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Post by Rick on Jan 22, 2005 13:07:35 GMT -6
Duke, a baseplated 1.75 Victor is "big iron" to me.
I've caught plenty of coyotes in my little Montgomeries. I also caught more than a few in my old 1 1/2 Victors. What I found about the 1 1/2 Victor is that it has a tendency to explode when it comes into contact with a Coyote foot. That's why I no longer own any.
You may be right though. I may be fooling myself thinking I can "avoid" some of the Coyotes by keeping my trap tight to the attractor.
Rick.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 22, 2005 13:33:31 GMT -6
While I think it is certainly possible ot reduce "incidentals"- the average trapper deosn't try.
For example- I could reduce my dry land coon catches by quite a bit by putting dirtholes next to basketball sized rocks or small logs. Many coon will work the sets from the object, never even using the pattern approach.
And I found out that making small stepdowns- reduced coyote catches simply because the coyote was able to work the set many times standing off the pattern.
Which is why I like walkthroughs- no matter the type- you do tend to catch most variety of animals in the one set.
I think blakcooyte is right- coyotes just adapt better- if there are just watermelons to eat- he eats melons- or corn or bugs or carcasses or ?.
They can tracvel- and do on a regular basis.
Fox are just more limited perhaps- take away the #1 prey base- be it rabbits, quail, etc....he has a hard time adjusting.
Perhaps the upswing in populations is simply those fox that do "live outside the (fox) box" - are now established and expanding.
One thing that I learned years ago- and since thme have read many studies confirming it- constant samr type of hunting DOES change genetics.
Two examples- rabbits. You can hunt rabbits at a certain woods all you want- the rabbits are plentiful. But after a few years- there is just as much sign- but yo uget vewry few rabbits?
Why?
Rabbits have 2 types- bold, daylight, above ground habits....... timid, underground more, night time
after years of shooting mainly type 1- you have as breeding stock type 2- and yo uslowly have changed the population from thr norm- type1 to the subnormal- type 2.
Pheasants are the same. Studies in NE show that on public hunting grounds- a running pheasant is becoming more the norm than the hold and flush type bird.
Interesting stuff...
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Post by Stef on Jan 22, 2005 13:49:12 GMT -6
I don't think we missed a lot of fox in coyote sets. But I do think that we can missed a lot of coyotes in fox sets. Look, on 1 farm I'm trapping right now. I did not see any fox sign ( on snow ) there the past weeks and I nailed 8 coyotes there so far and now, I don't see much coyote sign and got recently 3 fox. Kill these sob Stef
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Post by Rick on Jan 22, 2005 13:58:09 GMT -6
Here's an observation along the lines of what Stef said.
First off, I don't consider myself to be much of a coyote trapper. I've caught plenty of 'em, but they still give me trouble, be it related to poulation densities, my own stupidity, whatever. What often happens is I'll catch a coyote, maybe two, maybe three of 'em. But after that it seems I scared the hell out of them and they head for the next county. Or at least the other end of their territory. Thing is, while they're gone....I'll take 5-6 fox outta them traps.....where before there were none.
Seems the foxes KNOW when the big dogs aint around and feel like it's safe to use that piece of territory. Or at least safe to cut across.
Stef, seems like you've gone from mostly Reds to mostly Coyotes almost overnight.
Rick.
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Post by Stef on Jan 22, 2005 14:10:12 GMT -6
I don't complaint Rick, I've found the same thing as you said here. But what impressed me and I have difficulty to understand is that I put lot of miles on my snowmobile, I can go around all wood lot, anywhere etc... and I don't see any fox sign.... think they are waiting up or inside trees...LoL I kill a bunch of yotes and fox are back... go figure Stef
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Post by Rick on Jan 23, 2005 10:27:33 GMT -6
I understand the coyote to be a very adaptable animal.
But then stef speaks of fox that just materialize....out of thin air. I see the same thing, but without the snow, don't know where they come from.
So maybe we don't give the Red Fox enough credit for his own adaptability?
Rick.
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Post by WVBill on Jan 23, 2005 10:52:41 GMT -6
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Post by Maineman on Jan 23, 2005 11:19:14 GMT -6
First I want to say this has been one of the most entertaining post in a while...(THANKS) .... Sitting down here in a vacuum without so much as a trace of a coyote, I can only speculate at to what will happen to our reds once they move in...I do like the statement above that states "We don't give our reds enough credit" when it comes to defending themselves against coyotes...
My area of SE Pennsylvania is being built up more and more every day with development after development YET it still contains the pockets available for reds...My question to the coyote crowd would this..Do you believe that the lack of (LARGE) open space and the hustle and bustle of suburbia be enough to keep a coyote population controlled to only an occasional passing coyote?
I feel similar to NattyBumpo in that I really don't want to see a coyote on my line and when I get the urge to trap one, I ask one of you guys to invite me up... ;D
Again..Great post
Dave Z
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Post by trappnman on Jan 23, 2005 12:01:09 GMT -6
Maineman- just look at the expanding coyote populations in LA and Chicago.
They might not adapt right away...but they will adapt.
It might very simply be something as simple as the coyote is the dominant predator- and he simply outhustles the fox.
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Post by Rick on Jan 23, 2005 12:07:05 GMT -6
O.K. Dave, as you can probably tell I'm not really part of the "coyote crowd". But since our areas sound kinda similar, I'll tell you how it progressed here.
Maybe 15-18 yrs. ago I ran into a backhoe operator running a gasline back in the fields. He asked me if we had coyotes around here. I said "nope". He said he saw one the day before. I said "no you didn't."
12-13 yrs. ago I saw a few coyote hides hanging in a furbuyers' shed to the North of me, up along the Lake Ontario shoreline. He said he was seeing a few more every year.
10 yrs. ago I saw my first sets of coyote tracks, and caught my first two coyotes. What a rush! Then the trouble started. First I discovered that coyotes can eat 1 1/2 Victor coils for breakfast. Gotta go to a better trap on the foxline. (Notice I didn't say bigger?)
Next thing I learned was coyotes can pull 2 ft. of 1/2" re-bar out of the ground. Everything has to be cross-pinned or cabled.
I also learned other things, like coyotes are hard to carry, hard to skin, and they smell bad. But as you can see from earlier posts, most everything else I learned is open to debate.
So you can see how long a progression it's been Dave. 15-18 yrs. or so. This year I took 111 canines off my little hobby line, and only 9 were of the big, yellow-eyed, smelly variety. So if, as it sounds, your area is similar to mine, at the very least.....you got time.
Rick.
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Post by Mike Spring on Jan 23, 2005 13:53:39 GMT -6
Well from what I have learned from the coyote- fox debate over the last 25 years or so is that the reds are definetly staying closer to cover and their home range has gotten a lot smaller. The areas i trap and call all winter long tell me that the reds and coyotes are co-existing together and in good #s were i`m at, been about the same coyotes-fox per farm as 12 to 15 years ago. I`ve noticed the mange knock the heck out of the reds more than the yotes ( its always preasent here near rochester, NY). I trap alot of different farms in 3 counties (monroe, livingston, orleans , for those that know the area i`m from ) and I`ll see the same three or four sets of coyote tracks on the same farms every day, i`m assuming they are the same yotes, this is in feb and march, I guess what i`m trying to figure out is there home range seems a little small compared to what others say. Any ideas?
Mike Spring
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Post by Maineman on Jan 23, 2005 17:35:29 GMT -6
Thanks Rick...Great reply, and yes is sounds as if we have some time and that they don't just explode onto the seen in a year or two...Makes me appreciate what I have all the more...
Steve...Not sure what happened in LA or Chicago...are we talking suburbs?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 23, 2005 19:29:52 GMT -6
THe coyote populations in the suburbs AND the city is growing.
Google " Coyotes in the city" or some such...
Actually have been several coyote studies done in....Long Island.
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Post by bblwi on Jan 23, 2005 19:58:16 GMT -6
Thank you all excellent reading and I need to go back and read most more closely. In my area of WI, south of Green Bay WI about 50 miles and near Lake Michigan here is what I have been seeing over the last 24 years of trapping. Reds have had big population swings here over time and about mid 90s to 2000 thre was little sign. I see more and more sign now, quite a bit more.(Reds) As many have stated they are cover huggers now. The last 10 our so I have caught the last two seasons are where I set for dryland coon or usually greys. Coyotes are running the big fields. (Coyotes have steadily increased here over the last 25 years) Farms are going bigger fields and cleaner fencelines, bad for reds and rabbits. Hundreds of people buying small wooded, wildlife areas to build and hunt good for rabbits, reds, yotes and especially deer. I feel the mange when it comes really kills the fox fast. Yotes are as susceptible bu weigh 35 lbs not 12 and can live longer and actually mate and raise litters with mange. Fox die fast. I see many more rabbits again this year and last year. Fox are making a comeback.(more skunk too, connection??) This is my coyote theory, right or wrong. I feel the coyote really benefit from a large and growing deer herd in highly populated areas. With 40-60 deer per square mile and our rural populations here at about 30-40 per square mile, (about 10-15 homes) we have several thousand deer auto kills per year. Coyotes can really load up on road kill deer. Infact I feel lots of yotes den near major highways where lots of deer get hit. The yote is also strong and heavy enough to drag a cat, skunk, partially eaten coon, grinner off the road and eat it or take it home. They do not need to stand there and get hit themselves munching on the goods. We have tons of free and easy food through road kills and also about 400,000 gut piles per year in the fields and woods. I also believe that a coyote wastes little time running down reds and or making deliberate efforts to kill them. They have plenty of time to make these run ins peerly by accident or by discovering a den etc. Always interesting when we debate the chicken and or the egg on this one. To me preditors respond to habitat and prey and not the other way around. Animals tend to survive where the survival is the best. If disease i not a factor and cover is broken and available both can survive if their behaviors will tolerate each other.
Bryce
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Post by Stef on Jan 23, 2005 20:26:50 GMT -6
I have problem understanding that the reds now would prefer staying in heavy cover, big wood etc... because from what I've seen on my line over the year and I said it above in one of my post.. when I kill quite a few coyotes in one area I will catch foxes in those same locations ( fall or winter locations) and if I can kill quite a few yotes in one area good for usually 2 years, the next 2-3 years, all I normally catch in let say 75% fox and 25% coyotes.
Also, in the fall, I trap my coyotes usually in the more open fields. When I trap fox in the fall ... its usually the same locations. But when I winter trap, coyotes are not in the fields anymore like they used to in the fall so I move there and when there's coyotes... all I find is coyotes. I clean these coyotes and soon or later, if I'm lucky enough I'll get some fox but for sure... More coyotes are coming ;D
Stef
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Post by Zagman on Jan 24, 2005 10:03:10 GMT -6
7% of my canine catch was red fox.
14% of my canine catch was fox of either species.
85% of my total catch was in coyotes....
Yes, I coyote trap and Rick fox traps....but I dont think either one of us is missing the secondary species....at least not in bulk.
Adaptability, me thinks, is a large part of this....
A few years ago, when I was heavy into DU, a group wanted to release pintails around here.....they are not a bird of the east, but more importantly, they dont want to be right under our noses.....
Whitetails, turkeys, mallard, canada geese, and coyotes, have all increased in numbers AND thrived right under our noses.
Sit still long enough and a hen mallard will put a nest on your melon....
I think it is a combination of many things.....
I do see an increase in fox sign once the coyotes are pushed back a bit.....around here, I think the reds are in the woods more than I think, and they are certainly down in town, on the golf courses, etc.
Clean farming (no hedges), pesticide/herbicides, less rabbits, mice, pheasants, etc, probably all play a part.
But as far as PRIMO habitat and adaptability, that area of SE PA would not seem to be PRIMO habitat for a fox vs. the large rolling farms of huge fields, crops, woods, creeks, drainages, etc of my area or that of the midwest......
Sub-divisions and small farms seem to dominate the land scape there.....
But the difference? No coyotes....at least currently.
So, to me, as I get more experience and educated, I think it is a combination of several things.....
Zagman
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Post by pacoontrapper on Jan 24, 2005 10:48:50 GMT -6
Like Zag said, my guess is that its a combination of many different things that keeps southeast pa clean of large coyote numbers. For one thing, when youre "out in the country", theres plenty of open space, yet there probably isnt but a few hundred short yards of land between farms and houses. Every-single-coyote that comes into this area is almost always seen or known about until it gets killed. And for a breeding population to exist would be nearly impossible for the same reason. They can't sucessfully den/raise young. But what I often wonder is why areas like Maryland, which has a much larger red fox population than southeast Pa in many areas, doesnt have more coyotes. One would think that with all the open space it has compared to Pa, that coyotes would have more of a chance to populate themselves and spread. I know guys who can consistantly trap 30 fox A DAY in Maryland, who have taken a number of coyotes every year for many years. Yet, they havent become abundant in numbers, yet. So if is the coyotes that destroy the red fox numbers, I wonder why it works that way in some areas, yet in others spots they make little, if no difference whatsoever. On my line, when a pack of coyotes shows up, the fox numbers seem to stay consistant, but move to other areas where the yotes arent. The yotes move on, the fox filter back in...you tell me
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Post by GH on Jan 24, 2005 12:13:48 GMT -6
FYI for you Chester County guys, I am not sure if you all know this or not. I was talking to a guy here about 3 weeks ago that use to work closely with the local WCO. He is an honest guy and not full of BS. He said, in 1993, there were 7 confirmed coyote killed from the route 30 corridor to the route 202 and the Mason Dixon line. He said the PGC states the kill ratio is about 1/3 of the population. At that time they estimated the yote population in the southern half of the county to be about 21. I do believe some of the reds get killed by the coyotes but some or most move on. Some farms that I have that are close to confirmed coyote sighting areas have produced a lower number of reds in my traps this year than ever before (20 years of trapping these farms). However, farms 10 miles away where no coyotes have been spotted that I know of are producing more reds than previous seasons. What I don't understand is, why are we fox trappers not catching any now? With all of us trapping this area, we cover a lot of the farms with a lot of traps you would think one of us would catch at least 1 a year. Go figure! Glenn
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