Fox and Coyotes

[trappnman]

The statement was made elsewhere about the corrolation between seaosn, check laws and fox/coyote numbers. Saying thats hte reason the east has coyotes now, not fox.

But- fox are just as absent in most of their traditional "big numbers" range in the west as wellas well.

And I am still not convinced that the relationship between coyotes and fox populations is that cut and dried.

My thought for my own 2 counties- 30 years ago- I hunted beagles hard. I was active in many clubs, started a club here in MN, shots 1000s of rabbits over beagles. I could do this because there were rabbits everywhere cause there was habitat everywhere. WE had a massive set aside land program, corn was picked, it was not bare ground farming. Brush and brush piles were everywhere....

and besides the rabbits- we took a doz or more reds each year as incidentals. Fox sign was everywhere.

Now- corn is chopped. Bales are made of the stocks. Land is plowed. Brush? gone. Every 10 acre wood plot- has a house and a horse on it.

The habitat for rabbits here is gone. Yo uwould have a heck of a time shooting 5 rabbits a day here now- and that would be jump shooting around farm buildings.

and the fox are gone now also. Relatively speaking- although I am seeing a steady increase year to year.

The coyote is 100% different as a predator/scavenger than the fox is. Range, temprement, habits, place on the food chain- all different.

This new type of habitat- works fine for the coyote.

I havve thought of it this way also- I've taken a lot of coyotes out of these 2 counties over the past years- and maybe THAT is why te fox are increasing.

Yet..and this is the interesting part- places where years ago I caught both reds and coyotes in good numbers- now are low on both.

and my spots now where I get good numbers of reds- are also my best coyote spots.

so- full circle- good habitat provides good populations...

Comments?

[fishdaddy]

my area has more rabbits this year than the last 5 years ive been here .i see red fox on a regular basis and 1 live coyote just the other day .but i see their tracks all the time in the fields.i believe we have more fox than coyote.as far as the coyote running of the fox i dont think so there seems to be enough room for both.and the only animal i ever had killed in a trap was aa few rabbits.

[coyote]

seems like one of the toughest concepts most hunters have is the concept that habitat CHANGES over time. they hunt the same areas over a period of thirty years and just don't "get it" that the once good habitat has changed to not so good.

I think you're on to the real reason the coyotes are now king in a lot of places...same reason the fox still have a FEW refuges (SE PA and a lot of MD)...

HABITAT!

[woody]

I seen more Ki-yute sign then fox. I also know that the days of catch in a fox in the open fields are over, here they like to stay close to cover, Heavy cover. since the snow has hit the ground again I haven't seen any fox signs just yotes. I know that a few years ago we had a 50/50 population of Ki-yutes and fox. now I am not sure. I know one guy that gets both in his snares set in fences. and he has something like 6 reds and 8 yotes in the fur shed now, me I only have 2 yotes and a red.

Steve, I think your onto something with the habitat thing, Here it seems like all the fence rows had to be bulldozed to make room for them Big tractors that everyone just had to have a few years back. now all them farms are bank rupted and their farms are being sold in to parcels of 5 to 10 acre lots. We have one realtor here that just has to buy up every decent piece of ground that holds wildlife and turn it in to a houseing development.

Habitat place a big role in the populations of all critters, and the only thing that seems to be thriving here is the mice and voles, which would make one think that the foxes and Ki-yutes would be thriving also? I don't see it but I know that there have been 4 yotes taken off the dairy farm I am trapping and I have seen tracks of a single and a pair of yotes in the past week, that will make 7 yotes that was using this farm as a travel way, There might be more but the habitat is there, the farm needs his fences to keep the cattle in and he has long runs of fences that connect 2 woods and one runs to a thicket on another property, and theres one on the east side of the farm that stops at a winter wheat field that on the south side of it has a fence row and a small woodlot that has been cut and grown back up in a weedy mess. If the populations are going to come back like they were in the 60's and 70's, the HABITAT HAS TO BE PUT BACK ON THE GROUND...... and since that wont happen, we have to watch the wildlife suffer from loss of habitat, would be nice if the Anti's would use there money to put the habitat back, but they are too concerned with putting the ones that truely do care for the wildlife out of business, just goes to show they don't have a clue. woody

[CoonDuke]

Around here is seems good canine locations are good canine locations. The areas where I caught the handful of coyotes this season were also good red fox farms.

I am really looking forward to seeing the population next year. If the coyote population jumps next year like it did this year, I am in for some long nights in the fur shed.

Not that I don't love red fox, but it's just something the way locals perceive you when they know you catch coyotes. Goes a long way to help getting new farms.

[trappnman]

you got that right CoonDuke- the fact that I can put a trap into the ground- and have a coyote step into- amazes a lot of people.... heck, it still amazes me!

and only ONCE have I been turned down in asking to trap yotes. That guy let me trap anything else- but thought the coyotes controled gophers and mice so leave them alone.

[Rick]

Steve, don't know if you'll remember this or not. 3-4 yrs. ago there was a very long-winded, highly opinionated, sometimes heated discussion of the Coyote/Red Fox relationship on another forum. It was fascinating stuff to me (still is), due to my area being RELATIVELY new to the Coyote invasion.

One of the things I remember most about that thread is that you were the guy, maybe the only guy, not buying the whole theory of the Coyote being responsible for the demise of the Red Fox. Or at least not fully buying it.
At the time, due to the prevailing opinion, and through some of my own observations, you appeared to me to be full of crap. BUT.....now....I aint so sure of that.

The last couple years I saw a very low fox population here in my neck of the woods. At first I put the blame squarely on the Coyotes....now....not so sure. As you can see it's still a very confusing issue to me. Without a doubt, the Coyotes have changed fox trapping here.

But some of what I was blaming on the Coyotes may have been something else. Last year especially, I think a disease (distemper?) got in 'em. Not mange, I see mange every year and this was no worse. But possibly distemper due to the almost complete lack of young fox. I HAD believed that the Coyotes were cutting off the foxes' migration routes. I had seen enough evidence of this to convince myself, and still don't disbelieve it. But I couldn't blame it on the Coyotes last year because they got so scarce too.
What I figured had happened was distemper (or something) got into the canine population in the spring and killed alot of them off, especially the pups. Now I'm thinking the worse.....here it comes, just like they all said.....the Coyotes will recover and NEVER give the fox a chance to bounce back....fox trapping as we know it is over. I hate to be such a pessimist, but them guys were freaking me out.

But then a funny thing happened. This year I saw a better fox population than I'd seen in years and years. Plenty Coyotes out there too. So what gives? Was it a fluke? Did the fox bounce back first and it'll turn out to be a one-year deal? Is it something about this broken-up farmland that allows them to co-exist? Am I crazy?

So you can see, I still have a lot more questions than answers. But it ALMOST does seem the two are co-existing here....ALMOST.
I can say that since the arrival of the Coyote, the habitat has not changed drastically here. Have lost some farms over the years to sub-divisions, and basically the towns getting bigger. My trapline is farm-farm-buncha houses-farm-farm-buncha houses-town-buncha houses-farm....mostly broken-up, smallish parcels. That can't be it 'cause that sounds like a lot of guys' traplines across the country.

So I guess I'm right back to where I was 3-4 years ago. I don't know what the Hell's going on, but I'm hoping Steve's right.

Rick.

[trappnman]

well, Im not wrong ALL the time Rick...sometimes I find an acorn or two.... LOL

You are thinking exactly like I was thinking. At first- when the coyotes exploded here- back in.....late 70s- early 80s- and fox were rare- I put it 100% on the coyotes.

but its just not adding up anymore. It rememinds me of a long ago study by SD on pheasants- everyone KNEW that the demise of the pheasants was caused by too many coyotes and fox. So a big study was done. Turned out feral cats were #1 predator and habitat #1 solution. Canines were WAY down the list.

Contrary to what everyone KNEW.

I read the one study on Logan about a research projct that collared both coyotes and fox in the same area- and the study was to DETERMINE the interactions between the 2.

It was shown- that in this study at least- the coyotes did not go out of here way to chase and harass fox- in fact on many occasions the coyote/fox were observed to pass each other with no more than a glance.

Is this study the be all? No- of course not- but, coupled with my observations and now those of Rick- it makes you think.

[trappnman]

ps - I do remember the debate.

[CoonDuke]

It is hard for me to believe that coyotes mission in life is to hunt down every red fox in the land. I don't think we give the red enough credit. They are skittish for a reason and do a good job of keeping themselves out of trouble. Out in the open, a coyote can run one down, but I think the odds are a little different when cover is nearby.

But, BW says they coyotes do the damage during the pup rearing season. Just think how many times a pair of foxes leave the den and return. Like spokes on a wheel leading every coyote directly to the den whichever trail he follows.

I would love to see a study done on pup mortality.

[trappnman]

a good point-

would a fox den in the home range of a pair of denning coyotes?

Would denning coyotes hunt far outside their core area?

The fox dens I've seen aren't much larger than rabbit burrows- would a coyote go down them on a regular enough basis to make a difference?

Don't know.

[CoonDuke]

Steve,
I don't think a coyote would have much problem killing fox pups at a den, especially later in the season when they "come out to play". If a coyote wanted to get at those pups in the den, I think he could...but how bad would he want to? Don't know.

would a fox den in the home range of a pair of denning coyotes?

Would denning coyotes hunt far outside their core area?

Two damn good questions.

Also, when a coy pair is rearing, is messing around with red fox worthwhile?? Rabbits and mice are ripe for the picking and I'm sure taste a helluva lot better than fox...LOL.

It's all speculation...but it's fun.

[trappnman]

thing is- we all have these little pieces of the puzzle floating around inside all our heads- and by speculating with each other...sometimes we are able to fit a few of those pieces together...

and you are right- it sure is FUN.


and after all, thats the raison d'etre of these forums- to have fun.

Easy to lose the way...

[Rick]

I believe the part about the Coyotes being so tough on the denning fox and the pups.

I think that's why so many people who don't understand fox the way a trapper does misread the fox population. I get people telling me all the time in the early summer how many fox we got around here. They say they never seen so many fox. Looks to me like the foxes are just denning closer to town, closer to houses, and closer to the barn. Not a good guage of the fox population at all.

That was a great debate wasn't it Steve? Really made me think. If I remember right it was CoonDuke that started that whole mess.
Todd, you sound JUST like me 8-10 yrs. ago. When the Coyotes first came to town I thought it was the coolest thing....wanna see if I can catch 'em. Well...I can. The novelty has long since worn off. IF the Coyotes and Reds CAN co-exist here, well then, Coyotes are cool. But like I said, they have changed the fox line here....AND IF......they end up ruining it completely......then that's a very bad trade indeed.

Rick.

[billkasten]

Fox and coyotes seemed to be about the same on only one ffarm I trapped this fall. It was the only farm I caught red fox on. I harvested several coyotes on other farms but no fox..As far as habitat they were all about the same. The only difference with two other location's was mange ,in each instence I only caught 1 coyote and it was a mangey mess. Here in this part of Pa. are fox and coyotes normally den in rock ledges .which leads me to wonder how long mange mites might survive without a host in these ledges.Mange just never seems to leave this area.Habitat is the key to all wildlife and for 35 years providing it was my job. Every thing changes !!! In farm country feilds are plowed and cultivated .This isn't happining here much anymore.Most farms have been sold to the developers who have taken a 100 acre farm and made 10 parcels out of it. Thus less red fox habitat maybe ?

[CoonDuke]

Yeah, it was me that started it. There was well over 100 posts on that sucker. I wish I would have saved it.

[Rick]

O.K., wanna make it more confusing?

I live about 150 miles West of Zagman. I never talked to him about it, but there may not be 100 miles separating our traplines. Our dead canine numbers are in the same ballpark, but the ratios of Coyote/Fox are flipped upside down.

What's that all about??

Rick.

[trappnman]

could he be trapping coyote and you trapping fox?

[NattyBumpo]

I guess I am lucky that in my area Southern Maryland we still have fox everywhere and very few coyotes. The rest of the state is getting yotes as they migrate from PA and WV but I am farthest away from those areas in my state. And I am isolated by the Chesapeake Bay they aint swimmin' across that.

But they are slowly showing up here a turkey hunter popped one last spring and a few have been trapped in my area. And I heard of a roadkill.

Hint; they are using power lines to migrate to new areas.

I do not want them here and I hope to do everything I can to stop them. Because fox are easier to trap for me and their pelts are worth more money.

I know it is the begining of the end for fox here so I am going to go after them with everything I have.

We still have a good population of rabbits here. But not like we did 20-30 years ago. And we have hardly no quail and we use to have alot years ago.

[Rick]

Well....uhm...yeah...that's probably a pretty accurate statement Steve. Since I don't think Mark checks in here on the weekends there's probably no sense in me cracking jokes about him not being able to catch a fox.
Plus the one about him having ALOT of Coyotes where he lives is getting old.

I'm not (usually) trapping Coyotes. Set up tight to the attractor with a small trap (mostly 1 1/2 Monty R.J.s). I also avoid areas, unless it fits right into my line, where Coyotes just own the whole block.

I certainly don't think Mark's trying to avoid the fox, but may miss some due to trap placement while targeting a bigger animal.

But, having said all that, through an intimate knowledge of my own trapline, and many conversations with Zags, I do think our numbers are a FAIRLY accurate guage of the actual populations. Seems to be pretty similar habitat too.

Are they coming FROM the east and they haven't fully established themselves in my area yet? I don't know. Is there something so different about where the two of us live that one guy's got that much better Coyote habitat and the other guy that much better fox habitat? Don't seem to be. Is there something different about the habitat I trap in compared to his that would allow the two to co-exist? What is it?

See? I still got an awful lot of questions. Not too many answers. Looks like it's gonna take someone smarter than me to figure this one out.

Rick.