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Post by WVBill on Sept 10, 2004 4:25:26 GMT -6
Put this on the other forum and did not get alot of responces.
What is your preference? Why?
I prefer the Stops. I dont want to be explaining to the farmer how I have this special breakaway device on my snares and how the deer was able to take it across the field so far and eventually shake free of the snare without causing damage to the animal. To answer his last part of his questions would be the hardest to answer. That would be what is the best way to get it out of combine or any type of farm equipment for that matter, without causing any more hours of down time.
Bill
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Post by 17HMR on Sept 10, 2004 6:38:51 GMT -6
Bads let the loop come apart and the snare stays with your anchor Jeff
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Post by Wackyquacker on Sept 10, 2004 9:26:24 GMT -6
I use BADs but I can see advantages to both.
Regardless of what you choose, your best bet is not to hang them where there is a chance of contact with live stock or equipment.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 10, 2004 15:25:21 GMT -6
First lets look at stops. They will help with foot caught deer anything other than the foot= dead deer. Next the livestock issue maybe helpful with sheep, adult cattle still going to have some damage with a 2.5" stop. If your running in alot of deer and setting alot of trail snares for coyotes, fox and coons then I would recommend a stop and a bad. Bads having a solid anchor and I mean solid is the key to them working properly. Using as low lbs bad as possible as well, need to factor in are you using choke springs or not. You add on a choke spring and depending on snare length your adding 30-70 lbs to the breaking point of a bad. Animal behavior plays into the breakage of bads as well, cats don't fight a snare so using light bads would be great for deer livestock, coyotes using lower 200's with a choke spring and soild anchor with 5/64 1x19 cable, add a stop anywhere cattle are an issue. If you set crawl unders and deer /antelope using these I would not use a snare there, otherwise your going to end up with dead deer or antelope no matter your choice. Some think just stay inside the law and all is good, in certain areas this may not be an issue, but get into populated areas where passer by's see the deer/antelope in there and you stand to loose your snaring privlages sooner or later. Set snares and use common sense, avoid the heavy used deer trails,exspecially dual use crawl unders. They will just end up in headaches, and how many deer will cross these multiple use areas to every one coyote? They both have there place and it seems technology keeps getting better in the area of snare equipment.
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Post by Sage Dog on Sept 10, 2004 18:29:48 GMT -6
Let's keep snares away from combines. BAD's have nothing to do with that.
The breaking point for a BAD is at the end of the cable where it attaches to the snare lock. That leaves nothing on the animal, and all of your cable at the set.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 13, 2004 13:57:41 GMT -6
Sage if the non target can't beak the bad he isn't getting released! It is a rare thing for a deer/antelope that is wind pipe caught to bust a 300 or even less lb bad! You must have a solid anchor or the cushining effect again will make the break out higher than advertised. All bads are tested on a dead weight pull, not accounting for choke spring effects or whimpy anchoring devisies. When used for there purpose ie: leg caught non targets and a solid anchor what you describe does happen, other times it does not!
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Post by Wackyquacker on Sept 13, 2004 15:28:22 GMT -6
I do believe the Amberg release ferrule is tested with the spring in play. I don't know what effect this has if any on neck snared deer...I've never had that mis fortune...all ours have racks way bigger than 10 inches LOL.
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Post by Sage Dog on Sept 13, 2004 18:43:06 GMT -6
TC35, I never suggested that BAD's work every time or in every situation. I mere responded to a trapper that apparently worried that animals might escape with cable still on them.
And yes, a doe could possibly stick her head into a coyote loop, but I don't ever recall having that happen.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 13, 2004 19:30:55 GMT -6
I have had it happen, and even when setting what looks like a coyote trail or crawl under deer can and will be an issue. So many,many deer around there is nothing close to 100%, the best I have found are the small crawl unders that I know deer don't like too or can't fit through, antelope are definate problems, as they don't jump many fences, I see lope hair or droppings, I won't set it at all, unless I know it is a killing coyote going to an from an area. Trail snares not a big issue, most deer/lopes bump them and go on, unless a major restriction there are things you can do though and yes that is where a bad shines. I want to see snaring continue in each state that allows it, but there is no tool that in the wrong hands in a hurray can be taken away as fast as snareing . I would rather have someone new let alone a experianced snare person be on the conservative side and take few chances when it comes to snaring. Snares are an excellent tool, I rely on them heavy for beaver work, so cheap to build so fast to set and very effective. Coyotes the same certain areas and times of year they beat just about any other tool. But we must be responsable and ethical snare people to preserve there usage. Must of read your post wrong, I thought you were trying to state bad's are fool proof. Good Luck
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Post by trappnman on Sept 14, 2004 16:47:27 GMT -6
I've been told that deer stops are more a feel good procedure than a practical one...
comments?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 14, 2004 16:58:48 GMT -6
Deer stops on trail sets will save you from catching deer, provided your setting trails that are more open, field edges, dead furrows, grassy trails, they will help, crawl unders, and narrowed down trails "pinch points" that would/could force a deer to drop it's head down hill terrain etc, you will end up with deer and the stop's and bads for the most part aren't going to do you much good. Thats why I will always tell people exspecialy beginners, be very picky in where you hang your loop's or the end result will be dead deer! With high deer numbers most Game Depts, don't have a big fit over it, unless your trying to catch deer on purpose, which some real wise guys have tried and paid the price, but the on lookers in more urban settings are the one's that to protect your snaring privlages you need to really watch what your doing. If you get snaring all better be wise in your setting methods, because too much bad "pub", and you can loose it awhole lot faster than you got snaring.
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Post by Planes & Poison on Sept 14, 2004 17:34:43 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 15, 2004 6:57:02 GMT -6
Good research and I have some others as well, states bascially what trappers know. Deer stops do help and that bads and neck snared deer aren't a good thing. I have always said, 300+ lb break aways aren't good for much. I just don't know unless using the lightest bad possible, that where going to get away from neck snared deer that can't break out fast enough to survive. Snare education is the key and set only in the best coyote locations and leave the "deer/lope areas alone for the most part. There are so many variables, that it will be a tough deal, the dwr lock seems to be pretty decent from other reports I have read, haven't tried them but at like 1.00 something a lock and replacing the shear pin after each catch would rise up the cost of snaring, but that way may prove to be the best in time. I think the shear pin deal will be more ideal as with more research and quality manufacturing, the tolerances could be better, anytime you add something after market to a part you will loose a portion of control and having it preform equally time after time. Until then I use bads and deer stops in each situation that warrants, one the other or both.
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Post by Sage Dog on Sept 15, 2004 20:50:29 GMT -6
Regarding shear pin locks, remember a sheared pin usually also means a lost clevis.
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Post by WVBill on Sept 15, 2004 20:55:21 GMT -6
Appreciate all the replies.
I should of stated. I dont plan on placing these in a crawl under situation. I have some defined trails here and will use them there.
The snare in this state is to be a restrainment device not a killing device. We can not have entanglement situations. If caught it could be loss of license for 3 years.
We are very limited on how we can use a snare alot different than other states. At least we can snare.
Bill
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Post by Cliffy on Sept 16, 2004 5:46:46 GMT -6
Walked over a hill last season and found a large neck snared doe in one of my sets.
She was pulling on the cable (not hard) and then would smell the anchor point. She did that for 10 or 15 seconds and then looked up and saw me.
When she saw me she turned and ran. The BAD worked as intended and she didn't even slow down, had that been a deer stop I would of had to figure out a way to release her and that wouldn't have been fun LOL.
My only problem is I really like Hal's 280# BADS due to the size but a week later I lost a coyote in a set 20 yards away from where the deer was.
Ohio law lets us go up to 350# but I haven't found a BAD that goes that high and still has a small profile.
If I recall on the shear pin locks I didn't like those cause you have to change the pin after every catch, to much time and money.
I like the cam locks, I think they are really fast and more forgiving. Other snares set for mink( and the once in awhile ADC groundhog job that calls for a snare) get a BMI mini for it's really low profile.
Cliffy
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 16, 2004 12:57:53 GMT -6
Cliffy" I like the cam locks really fast and more forgiving?"Fast I'll grant you but a cam lock is not a forgiving lock nor even close, the whole purpose of this design in a snare lock is to lock up hard and fast! You had a neck snared doe, what kind of anchor did you have? and was this with a cam lock? either that doe was there for 20 min or less or you must have had that thing tied to a tree bow? It takes only 90 lbs of pressure to crush the wind pipe of an adult deer, far less than your 280# bad! With a solid anchor, cam lock and even a 280 bad 99.9% of neck snared deer are going down! I caught one by the snout a nubbin buck, had my stake out 10" and bent over in a 90 angle with a 280 bad and it was dead to the world. Cut off the air and couldn't breath, there is nothing that fights a snare harder than deer. Cam locks are not a forgiving lock, you must have some really worn locks if there backing up on you?
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Post by Wackyquacker on Sept 16, 2004 16:00:14 GMT -6
Just a thought, a good bad would release 100% of the deer and hold 95% of the coyotes. Now, I do not intend that statment to contradict any thing that has been stated about "wecks". Rather, a philosophical view on performance expectations.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 16, 2004 16:46:05 GMT -6
Wacky Q that would be true if we hadn't had to deal with neck snared deer. Thats why you must avoid that situation as best as one can. I don't know how we could have a break away that will hold 99.9% of all coyotes in all situations and still release 90% of neck caught deer. Wait I got it!! Try to reduce the situation of neck snared deer in the first place at 90% of your snare locations, all kidding aside one must use good judgement in this deal, the bad's work for deer/livestock. The leg caught ones, the others just avoid the deal and all is good for the most part. Adding the stop and 99.9% of all leg caught deer are down the road.
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Post by Wackyquacker on Sept 16, 2004 18:08:38 GMT -6
I've never had the misfortune to neck snare a deer...you got have deer to have that happen or maybe muleys spook along differently. I could not agree with you more...error on the side of caution!
I'll take a snare that will hold 90% of they coyotes and release the deer any day. I can catch that coyote later.
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