The Canine Box

[coydog]

We often hear a trapper talk about their success coming from "learning to think outside the box"

So,... what was your box?
What was that little detail or procedure that was your turning point to canine comfort?

Ill have to think about this one before I reply, cause Ive been through a few boxes, and am still packaged quite well ;D

What were you kickin yourself for not seeing sooner?

Have fun with this one guys ;D
Should be a good read!

[bobwendt]

actually several things, probably #1 finally no longer believing the rubbish I read as a youth that canines were "smart", #2 trapping in the west and seeing a 100 canine man in the east is a 1,000 canine man in the west , for no other reason than good weather and unlimited access(no mud and no rain), The point being don`t believe what western trappers have to say- or at least believe sparingly as most don`t hold a candle to the mudders and competition in the east.,#3 realizing they can be "trapped out" and when you see no more tracks, trust yourself, you caught them all - and move on!

[mattjones298]

does that mean if i go west bob i gotta skin more??

as for the post, when i figured out i`m better off trying to catch 3 coyotes out of a pack then moving, then trying to catch all the coyotes in a pack.

matt

[bobwendt]

yes, even today , as long as I have been doing this trapping, my biggest mistake is I always stay too long. It`s just so easy to run the line another day. Truth is, the money is in setting traps, new sets every day, not in running stale trapped out lines because they are easy.

[trappnman]

A good question-

I think my 2 revelations were 1) when I realized how important visuals were and 2) and when I realized how, in my area, unimportant human scent issues are.

Collaring those coyotes on my actual line, and seeing some of the results- really made me realize that in farm country- coyotes are homebodies and can usually be found in the same neighbor more times than not.

Understand why coyotes travel or more accurately- where they will travel- what traits they have- made locations a snap.

Finding the Logan site- and finding out about coyote research. While "book" learning doesn't replace field experience- this Logan site and their perspective (predator control)...gets yoi uthinking all kinds of things.

The infamous core area vs fringe debate for example.

That's while it still puzzles me why some dismiss any coyote information except from their locale. Mechanics are easy- watch any good coyoteman's demo and you will learn a basic set to take coyotes. But to learn about the animal, to try to understand what makes him tick- that to me is the essense of coyote trapping ability.

Why is Bob successful in denning- cause he picks the den and is there waiting for the bred female to show up- so to speak.

Knowledge is power. Conformation of experimental theroys- is knowledge. The more you discuss things and the more you debate- the more you think- the better coyote trapper you will be.

Bob- I don't think the western trappers need to hold a candle to anyone regarding coyotes. I think a "100 canine man in the east is a 1,000 canine man in the west " is a bit of an exagerration. While longer checks are an advantage, I really don't see much of a fall/winter advantage-. Most of the trappable west gets it's share of snow, rain and mud. Where do you think all that mess comes from in the upper and northern midwest? Right through Montana/ Wyoming/Dakota belt....or up through Neb and Kansas.

Sure- its dry there in summer and early fall- but Nov, Dec, Jan...

I think a good coyote man is a good coyote man- and after a little adjustment to specifics- he would be right back in business.

I tell you this Bob- I would honestly like to see your line- I consider myself a decent coyote man- but I still get misses, digups, etc. I find it amazing you do not.

Now- I do believe that a coyote messing with you HERE- is just as apt to be sitting THERE for you- so I don't get too upset- I figure as long as he works a set I'll catch him.

[Maineman]

Coydog said:

What was that little detail or procedure that was your turning point to canine comfort?

To never, never, never set only one trap... Nothing like seeing 2 fox at your set when you know you only have 1 trap...DUMB...

and more importantly than anything I've ever read, seen, heard or did... My #1 turning point with k9's was confidence...Nothing catches more fox than confidence...FACT!!!

Dave Z

[coydog]

Mechanics are easy- watch any good coyoteman's demo and you will learn a basic set to take coyotes
True!!

But to learn about the animal, to try to understand what makes him tick- that to me is the essense of coyote trapping ability.

Well said!

when you see no more tracks, trust yourself, you caught them all

All Bob. What about drifters???

To never, never, never set only one trap

Amen to that!

[jsevering]

I think I started alittle outside the box, trapped with my father and he was an oppertunist.

seen alot of fox caught along the rat and mink line in simple sets that presented themselves.

kind of learned to let the animal define the box....jim

[bobwendt]

drifters? I don`t worry about not catching one that is not there! Now if some rancher wants to pay the $1,000.00 /head that usda spends/coyote I will stay and get the drifters- for 20 buck hide or 100 buck live one, no way. As far as the exaggeration on the grand the taxpayers pay, I know the va. usda trapper that set the usda record for coyotes caught in one year , a whopping 38. His wage was $42,000/year, about $1,100.00/coyote cost to the taxpayers.. In the west the winter snows are dry snow mostly, 10-20% humiditys, the snow doesn`t melt, it litterally evaporates. You know squeeky snow, light and fluffy, can`t even make a decent snowball to throw. Many is the "open" winter with sun I have see from ks to wyoming. Indiana averages 165 sunny days/year, wyoming 335- from u.s. weather servace statistics. We get 35 " of rain a year, sw wyoming 8" ne wyoming 18" . True I may have exagerated the 100 to a 1,000, but I would say 100 to 500 certainly was with in reason.

[redfoxtrapper2000]

#1 Learning that to catch large numbers of coyotes takes a larger amount of area and space between stops compared to fox. Also maybe the most important as far as thinking outside normal location box. Realizing that knowing the point where a coyote is likely to be and where he is going can often show you a set that has no feature or reason other than he takes the closes point from a to b.

[coydog]

I understand where your coming from Bob, as a damage control aspect, but fur trapping I have a few locations on my line that if I pulled out when things slowed a bit Id be missing out on some good fur.
These are not all locations, as I agree if you dont move you loose, but certain spots Ive found through the years that have good waves of movements throughout the season. Kind of no pressure, refuge type locations that they go when hunting pressures get high.
Im not disagreeing with you, just adding my 2 cents.

[trappnman]

Realizing that knowing the point where a coyote is likely to be and where he is going can often show you a set that has no feature or reason other than he takes the closes point from a to b.

I could not agree more- Where is he? Where does he want ot go?...set in between.


but certain spots I've found through the years that have good waves of movements throughout the season.

as the harvest gets into full swing- certain travelways continue to produce thoughout the season- I have one farm (my best location) where I take from 11-15 coyotes a season- spread out over a 6 week period.

[bobwendt]

I`m too impatient, always thinking of the 6-8 quick easy ones down the road that can be had in 2-3 nights. Definitly a difference between how I operate on a paid adc basis and how I operate on a pay myself based on numbers basis. I do know how to downshift to first gear when the need arises. The biggest problem I see working for agricultural interests is the abounding stories to the effect of "I lost 50 g of lambs to the coyotes" , but when asking for a 20g wage to save 50g, they start to stammer and look down, heck even a few tanks of diesel and a rough illegal alien bunkhouse all the sudden seems big pay to save him his 50 g. Truth is maybe he lost 2-3 g to the coyotes, another 10g to worms and weather and total non-management , and the last 38g was total fabrication b.s. The coyotes belong to the public but the public ( and adc is the publics responsibility) multiple use range belongs to the rancher. Now figure that one out!

[trappnman]

I wrestle with this decison all year- will I continue to "stay the course" on my locations, or have a mass turnover every 10 days or so?

I somewhat compormise- I have my middle area- my best areas as it turns out- that are set up first and pulled last.

Then I have an eastern loop and a western loop- I set the eastern loop up first, then need to pull it after a couple of weeks because most of it is in prime buck country- then I set up my western loop. Some overlaps of course.

At home Bob- do you run and gun that much?

[Timber]

T-Man say;

I wrestle with this decison all year- will I continue to "stay the course" on my locations, or have a mass turnover every 10 days or so?

I find that I move my footholds much more than I move snares. I set most of my snares on either travel corridors, such as powerlines, river bottoms, gas line, fire breaks,ect. or around bait stations and I like to have them ready and waiting for the K9's when they come through.

On my footholds (and some snares) I like to run and gun them always looking for the next "green pasture" or "dumb" coyote.

I find that with a system like this I have then best of both worlds. It takes a little more time to set-up and manage but from my records my catch improves as I refine my system more and more with each year.

Tim

[bobwendt]

yes, run and gun, but keep in mind when I leave there is nothing left to gun at. I do come back and reset the better areas at a later date, maybe 10-30 days later. By then the smoke has cooled and a whole new raft of critters are in, I`m talking winter trapping, not summer. Summer, when I leave there are none left to get and no new ones showing up till winter at the earliest. Certainly not cost effective to hang around for 1 a day or one every other or third day on an all day line When the first few days are in the 20`s or teens, then down to 4-5 . First day of 1 or 2 and every trap should have been pulled YESTERDAY and the whole afternoon spent pounding in new sets. Yes, lots of work doing a complete line rotation every 7 days or so, but that is the way to make money- work,work,work.

[trappnman]

Ok Bob- and I am asking this with no hidden motives- and no disrespect- are you really that freaking good?

I consider myself a pretty decent coyote man- but when I pulled traps this season, I noticed several locations that had fresh tracks-

Are you convinced that given 3-5 days- you will take all coyotes in that location?

Cripes- maybe I am taking all of them and the new tracks are new coyotes?

I really don't know what I could do to bump my skill level up that extra notch.

Tell me your take on things....

[bobwendt]

well, you are fur trapping in the fall. After the local family units are taken you are waiting on new ones, maYBE THE TRACK (S) YOU SEE LEFT are POSSIBLY ONE OR TWO OF THE ORIGINAL FAMILY UNIT LEFT. i DUNNO. Early fall it is a long wait, late fall and winter it goes on pretty regular. Your type coyotes and indiana types and the whole east it is pretty easy to recognise all the family members due to odd colors etc. You catch the old female, a 2 year old helper and the old dog and 5-6 pups and , well, there aren`t anymore till winter migration, which really doesn`t get into swing till jan. If you trapped in the summer like I do you would see the same results and know when you got them all. Of course, you would soon learn you have to be within 1/2-1/4 mile of the family lay up spot or no dice. Lots of looking, then set bigtime when you locate them and catch them all out in 2-3 nights. Set heavy ,as if you ding them 1 a night , about the 3rd one caught and they up and leave the country and you have to go find them all over again, often not so easy the second time around. It has nothing to do with trapping ability, but finding ability and then gang setting, up to 6-8 trasps in a very small area, maybe only 50 feet. Sorry, the cap lock stuck on me. I don`t see it as "being that good", but rather just knowing your business and coyote family modus at different times of the year and when to gang up on them and when to scattergun them. I work them from spring denning on thru 100 degree august temps and fall and then winter and into feb/march and april. Been doing it for about 17 years that way and fur trapping for 20 years before that. If I didn`t have it figured out by know I likely should have changed businesses a long time ago. So not a matter of "so good". Remember larry bird the pro basketball player? He would always make that clutch game winning shot while falling over and throwing over his back with his left foot while three 7 footers were guarding him with 1/2 second on the clock. Everyone would say what luck- no luck at all, just was his business and he had been doing it since a little kid and had a better work ethic than the other players, never missed a free throw (oh, poor shaq.) and was nuts over it. Better than the others, nope , he was white and couldn`t jump, was slow and was not agile, but he lived and breathed basketball. Trapping has been my life. I`m no better trapper than anyone, just live trapping like larry bird lived basketball. I`m old, short, slight build, eyes going bad, bla bla, but it is my business. Hope this explains it without sounding uppity or smart arse.

[Edge]

Ok then,i was thinking that you were saying you cleaned an "area"out of coyotes,I was hitnking thousands of acres,when in actuality,you are talking a few thousand square feet;makes more sense.

Edge

[bobwendt]

edge, no , you were right the first time. Of course density depends on the habitat and part of the country, but I am trapping out a family unit that may tie up ten or more square miles but base their activity in the hot months in only 100 acres. In jan., nobody can clean them out as they are migrating sometimes 100`s of miles and it is ongoing bigtime for 60 or so days and to lesser amounts earlier and later. This is why a fur trapper need never worry about leaving seed on coyotes.