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Post by trappnman on Sept 4, 2004 17:05:00 GMT -6
All I'm talking phil is coyotes in the upper midwest- and its just my observations.
i might be right, I might be wrong- thats what is neat about theroys-
I still would like to see research on coyotes showing an extended 2-3 month breeding season.
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Post by psb1011 on Sept 4, 2004 17:43:23 GMT -6
Don't know much about coyotes,but might learn some in the future.But from what I see in foxes,most of the breeding takes place over a short time--couple of weeks,though there always seems to be a few exceptions.Mabe the same thing with coyotes-don't know.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2004 20:14:48 GMT -6
Most where in the 2-4 year age bracket, being my best judgement. talking to some others, they had alot of 8-9 pup counts, interesting we where down on coyote numbers due to mange and a parvo outbreak on pups the year before, I came. Falls in line with research telling us that coyotes can make up for down turns in the over all population.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 5, 2004 6:46:47 GMT -6
2-4 year old females- is an old population.
And thats a lot of pups for females that age.
What studies show is this- a normal coyote population has 60% or so young of the year in it during the peak fall period. In an unexploited population, most of the yoy females are not bred.
The older, adult females are bred first- and these females usually have smaller litters. I debated this for weeks with Wiley- and he convinced me that this is true.
Average numbers for older females are lower than the average number of pups from younger females.
In an exploited population- more young females are bred- and since in coyotes the younger females have more pups- the population expands.
Leading to the myth that coyotes can "control" the number of pups they put out- they cannot.
The number of pups per females is based on age, food, condition, etc. Not population.
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Post by blakcoyote on Sept 5, 2004 7:24:08 GMT -6
I've worked on a large fox farm(20,000 animals avg.) for 8yrs.And I worked mostly with AI breeding.Lighting was the factor in bringing fox in season both males and females.Although by artificially controling there light the majority came into season the last week of jan. until about the second week of march.The peak was around the first week of feb.We did have a few,but very few come in the beginning of jan. and these were old adults.The ones that came in last were yoy,with alot of yoy not coming in at all.I believe without the artificial lighting this time frame would be alot shorter,thats why the lights are used so as to get as many bred as possible by AI.The hardest thing was keeping the males in season.Once the males hit there peak we actually cut there daylight back to prolong there ability to produce.We did have a few coyotes but they were basically a novelty thing and didnt get the attention to breeding like we did with the fox.
As far as pup season went the genaral rule was the older the female,the fewer pups,some only having 1 or 2 but these were quite old females.Yoy who had pups had a higher mortality rate with there pups,due to alot of things.But the biggest thing was the yoy would eat there pups when they were nervous or startled,such as early spring thunderstorms.Most pups who ate there young did it within the first couple days of giving birth and I suspect the same is true in the wild.Some would just eat the tails and the pups would survive.But the ones who did the pupping munching,usually didnt do it in the followong years,the ones that did were monitered every year to prevent pup loss.And subsequently pelted out when they hit there peak usually at 4yrs.The other factor was lack of milk.
I know there not coyotes but would suspect alot of the same,as far as a 2 month breeding season I cant see it.I could see it starting earlier by about a week if the previous 9 months were cloudier that normal,ie rainy year.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 5, 2004 8:04:43 GMT -6
Your post comfirms a lot of things.
In young dogs- this type of nervousness and killing/eating pups also occurs.
Having the female whelp away from all commotion and being left alone- reduced or eliminated this problem in nervous females and their offspring.
I suspect- that the incidence of this disorder occuring might be much less i nthe wild.
heres an interesting tidbit- Geo Nixon, of Missouri was the msot successful breeder of beagle field champions EVER- and his record will probably never be equalled- the field champions his stud dogs produced were in the 1000s- and many of his females would have 3-6 FD Ch in them.
Geo kept exact records- and determined that BY FAR- the pups in the first litter were by far the best performing pups- as each litter was whelped, no matter the number of pups, the # of Fd Ch produced decreased.
Geo was adamant in that NEVER waste that first breeding on "ole Joe" down the street- if you have a good female- breed her to the best FIRST.
Whether that translates into wild canines I don't know.
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Post by blakcoyote on Sept 5, 2004 9:10:05 GMT -6
The fox breeding business is similar to the dog business.Most fox were bred for genetics and color,and fur quality.With fur being the secondary income.Fox were worth more for breeding stock on the farm I was on.Pelters were the old ones or pups with the lower fur quality or genetic qualities,but usually were left to there second year to see what there breeding potential was and fur quality,fur quality didnt change much though ,if at all.It is nothing for a pup to have 8 pups in her first year,second year about 6,from then on it starts going down hill with an average of 4,once it started dropping off past that they are pelted,unless it's an exceptionally high quality female that could produce an exceptional male for breeding stock.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 5, 2004 9:45:46 GMT -6
Coyotes population does have effect on litter size it is proven in research not a myth. I wil quote from this paper and it's studies.Wild mammals of North America Biology, Management and conservation 2nd edition by Marc bekoff and Eric Gese.First coyote mortality is highest in younger coyotes depending on the level of control and food availabilty. Knowlton 1999 pups and yearlings coyotes 1-2 years old have the highest avg mortality stands to reason.Knowlton1972 crabtree 1988 and Gese 1989 reported high survival rates in coyotes 4-8 years of age. About 70-75% of the coyote population is in the 1-4 year old knowlton 1999. This doen't take into different factors such as crashing food base, parvo, or heavy mange, but would further prove that if you have a parvo or mange out break that what would be left would stand to reason the older coyote not pups which parvo is hard on and mange as well. So my findings aren't out of line with this reporting. Lets get to the meat of this report. Avergae litter size is 6 but and I quote, is known to be affected by population density and food availability which take into account recent coyote populations as well as weather and food base conditions.Knowlton 1999 reported avg litter size of 4.3 pups per female at high population densities and 6.9 pups avg per female in low population densities. Also reported gier 1968 reported a higher litter sizes in years of higher rodent base as well. Again making sense. Effects of exploitation gese 1989,1996,windberg 1995 The populations generally differ in explotied populations, by having a younger average age structure, lower survival rates, increased number of yearlings reproducing and the biggie increased litter size! and less packing behavior.Litter sizes increase due to reduced coyote densitys and the likely response to less compition to food. So yes years you have higher pressures applied to coyote's the avg litter size the females throw are higher, because of the pressure, less coyotes and the food base being more for less coyotes, so you have better healthier females on avgerage and thus increased litter sizes. So to some it up yes food and other factors relate to this debate but overall, coyote population and the densities of these coyote have a direct impact on litter sizes. The population generaly dictates the availbilty of food, more coyotes low food base, less good reproduction taking place, better food base lower coyote numbers better reproduction = higher avg litter sizes.
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Post by coydog on Sept 5, 2004 10:02:19 GMT -6
This is all a pretty un-ventured line of thinking for me, as far as breeding facts, definately good info to learn and understand. (bear with me here) So, with breeding of wild canines, is there a "beginning" stage of the process that may start well before the actual physical breeding occurs... If say breeding occurs in Feb, and your seeing paired up animals in the end of Dec. would this be early stages of the process??? A time when the males may start becoming protective or claiming the female/s.
What about the times the females go into heat. My partners blu lacy just got through a few days ago, so does that mean female coyotes that may not have been bread could be doing so also??? Or is it based on when they were born/ time of year, that they cycle?
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Post by blakcoyote on Sept 5, 2004 10:05:45 GMT -6
From what I read is the lower the coyote population,the higher the avaiable food base,which means a healthier animal has a higher litter size.That stands to reason with every living creature.And with a higher predator base compared to a low prey base less pups are produced because of the lack of nutrients a female is able to provide to her unborn pups.But I dont feel the produce more pups to compansate for low densities.Deer show the same thing,hard winters,less fawns,mild winters more fawns.
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Post by blakcoyote on Sept 5, 2004 10:28:22 GMT -6
If say breeding occurs in Feb, and your seeing paired up animals in the end of Dec. would this be early stages of the process??? A time when the males may start becoming protective or claiming the female/s. What about the times the females go into heat. My partners blu lacy just got through a few days ago, so does that mean female coyotes that may not have been bread could be doing so also??? Or is it based on when they were born/ time of year, that they cycle? As far as pairs go I think they are paired throughout the year,just more loosely during certain times of the year,I could be wrong.I do alot of coyote calling and have shot doubles in october consisting of a male and female together,by looking at there teeth they were older coyotes. If they dont get breed they dont get bred.Pups may come in later there first year,but by the second year they fall into place,and it depends on there maturity if they breed.If there late born there first year they may not breed at all,but the overall breeding is dictated by daylight,just as is fur primeness.Shorter days less sunlight brings in primeness,when daylight starts getting longer it sets off the reaction to breeding,bringing the females as well as the males in heat.At least thats how it is with fox and I would suspect the same in coyotes.You could artificially make a male produce a sample for breeding in july but there will not be sperm present.And you cant make him no matter how much you play with his lighting,you can only alter both female and males breeding times by a little bit,but for this to occur in the wild is very ,very slim.They have a pill you can inject under the skin to bring pelts into full primeness as early as the first week in october,but thats about as far as it goes.All this though,breeding and fur is basically dictated by light,reacting with the melatonin in the eyes I believe.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 5, 2004 15:58:39 GMT -6
Blakcoyote, it is all related like a built in safety mechanism, otherwise why would the litter size very? Healthy is relative, how healthy is the coyote that has 4.2 pups versus the one that has 6.1 pups avg? Population plays into the avg litter size plain and simple. Are there other factors sure, but population plays into litter size, I'm not saying a coyote response is we got smakced hard last year so I have to up the litter size this spring, it is a built in check and balance to make up for the lean years. This is under an exploited coyote population and that those unexploited throw smaller litters each year, is all 100% one or the other food versus population? I would say no but population does play into litter size. great topic and good post by all.
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