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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 15, 2004 14:05:30 GMT -6
Lets start things off with a common problem- cooytes coming to the set but then 1) walking all around the set and digging from the side/back or 2) coyotes standing on the edge of the pattern and refusing to come closer.
Most of the advice one hears to correct this has to do with odors- primarily odors from yourself or too strong of odors such as lure or bait. While I conceed that occasionaly this might be a problem- I'm not too sure that it is the main one.
Standing on the edge of a set COULD mean the lure is ineffective- and simply doesn't interest a coyote enough- but rarely is it because the lure odors are too strong.
My view is that MOST times it is the visuals that cause this behavior.
Any thoughts?
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Post by RdFx on Jan 15, 2004 16:27:22 GMT -6
Depending upon how one set a trap for the yote in relation to the type of set he or she puts out makes a big differance. Especially when one suttley guides the yote to step on pan of trap. Proper lure will make yote want to smell or dig and those two responses should put yotes foot on pan if lure is doing its purpose and trapper did his proper setting of trap...... Now if you get wised up yotes with bad experineces then you have your digger sometimes or one that just will avoid (lured) sets altogether and then you need blind sets or snares to put clamp on yote or just suttle urine post type sets or feces. What works for one trapper sometimes wont work for another in another part of country but if you Observe and have Patience the canine will help you catch him
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Post by skidway on Jan 15, 2004 16:33:03 GMT -6
I've always thought that if you get a coyote to your set your lure has done its job. If it chooses to circle and walk away then I probably haven't done mine correctly; whether it's my odor or it's something they see and don't like. I've always thought they are highly visual animals so my sets have to look as natural as I can make them with as little human sign as possible. I cover my tracks as well as can; both visual and scent.Might also be a trap shy animal too.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 15, 2004 19:53:20 GMT -6
Couple things here, first I believe the staement about the lure is good enough if it gets the coyote to the set is correct. I am no big coyote trapper, but I am trying to work this logically from a fox trapping perspective. Secondly the part about visuals is something I believe than can turn a yote off, or if done properly, really trip his trigger and get him coming in strong. Bad visuals would be foortprints in and around the set, un-natural looking set, as in bad or no blending. Good visuals would be, a piece of charred wood on snow with maybe a little urine or gland lure on it, a few feet from the set. A bone or a white rock out in a dark field, a pile of brush at one end of a corn field, a pile of chaff left over after the bean harvest.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 15, 2004 20:00:14 GMT -6
I posted this as a response to a thread on another forum. My experience is limited to fox but here is my take on it...
What causes pattern misses?
This was discussed before on this forum but it's a good subject. I like Bud Hall's beliefs of pattern misses. He had a theory that some nights fox just weren't in the "mood" to work sets. He also believed that female red fox worked a set less aggressively than a male. I tend to agree with him on both accounts. Animal mood I believe definitely contributes to this problem.
As Minkie stated, sometimes the animals are just lucky too.
Johnny Thorpe and I once talked about this subject. He stated that if you are consistantly getting pattern misses, you lure is not doing it's job. The animal should want to get at the lure more than just taking a quck step and sniff. It totally agree with this although many lure makers don't. The key work is consistantly. There is no lure out there that will get an aggressive response from every fox every time...but if you get one track more often than not, I would say your lure sucks.
Unnatural set construction and odor problems may contribute to pattern misses, but in my opinion these factors are not nearly as important as the two I stated above. I could believe that these two things may matter more with coyotes.
The nature of the animal also factors in. Gray fox are notorious for working a set the way you don't want them to. They may be very aggressive...but just not stepping where they are supposed to. Coon can be the same way at land sets. Insufficient backing and poor guiding may be the culprit. I have not experienced this problem with red fox as much as with grays and coon.
What can we do to cut down on misses?
More emphasis on guiding may help get the inevitable "one trackers." Larger traps with a bigger kill area may help too.
Proven lures are a must. Multiple attractors seem to help in my fox trapping. Prepared bait and gland lure in addition to the call/curiosity lure seem to help keep the animal at the set longer. Addition of feathers to the hole or a dropping can't hurt either.
If I am consistantly having trouble at a certain set, I will sometimes move it a little further from cover. The theory is that the fox might not be comfortable where the set was before and a change in set orientation might change the fox's mood. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't.
Some animals may be dirt-hole shy too so trying some different types of sets will help to pick up the fox that do not aggressively work a dirthole.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 15, 2004 20:35:23 GMT -6
I agree on the lure. Thats why I realy don't have the problem of tracks on the pattern edge.
Now yes, of course I have coyotes walk by. It sometimes amazes me to see in the snow how a coyote can walk by 1 set to be taken in an almost identical set down the road.
As you might know- I am a big believer in a lure causing multiple responses (I have to say O'Gormans last article in Trapper World seemed right on to me.) I want that coyote to slobber at the set- or at the very least make "that insane step".
When I have avoidance problems, they are of the type where the whole set is stomped down- except the trap bed. I find this is due to 1 of 2 things- in no particular order 1) rusting traps 2) poor visuals.
1) rusting traps- I know that many have success with rusty traps- but I believe that depends on their territory- low humidity areas seem to tolerate more rust. I know, without a shadow of doubt, that coyotes will avoid stepping on a rusty trap. OR a trap smelling of dips.
Dye and wax takes care of most of the problems- but I can see, must as I detest the idea- that I am loosing coyotes because I am not changing taps. Now I do believe I am catchng many of those missed in other traps- but not all, thats for sure!
Quick links and the 3 day rule wil be my next step.
2) bad visuals. My coyotes here are VERY susceptible to vcolor and color differences and changes. A different colored pattern will spook them every time. I find it pretty amazing that coyotes can tell subtle color differences at night- but they do.
CoonDuke- my fox experience is limited- but stef told me that he notices females seem to be more diggers than males- that is, if you have a fox messing with your sets every night or 2- chances are its a female and your expriences would mesh with that.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 15, 2004 21:23:46 GMT -6
Steve, the Red that drove me absolutley insane for 5 weeks turned out to be a female, and also the smallest fox I caught this season. But I am telling you, I should have given up after the first couple days, but I got drawn in, I even lost sleep over this critter trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. What I did wrong was try to compete with the fox on her level. Once I stepped back and used what she knew against her, I had her in two days.
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Post by wheelie on Jan 16, 2004 6:42:44 GMT -6
Sometimes I believe that its not a problem with sent or type of lure, but mearly the yote had other plans on his mind, he checked out smell but was just passing through to his destination for that night and will make a mentel note to come back to the set when he passes through next time.
He just might be waited for you next time he comes through ;D
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 16, 2004 8:42:46 GMT -6
I agree wheelie- sometimes they just do what THEY want! LOL I've touched on this before- but in farm country- coytes spend a lot more time in a lot smaller area- being much more homebodies (as a general rule) than the long distance wanderers they often are out west or in poorer habitat areas. And part of the study showed that coyotes would often spend all night in just a few acres. So- I came to the conclusion that if not caught in first pass by set- which might or might not happen- the nthey could perhaps walk by the set 2,3- heck a doz times or more- until, for whatever reason- they work the set. And when you look at the results of studies (check it out-more coyote info than you thought existed- save this link): www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/field/logan.html yo uwill see that coytes react very negatively to introduced visuals...at first. but after they become used to them- the opposite reaction occurs- they just HAVE to check it out. so in a farmland situation- a coyote could be leary of a set for the first few passes- but sooner or later...
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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 16, 2004 8:54:38 GMT -6
"I've touched on this before- but in farm country- coytes spend a lot more time in a lot smaller area- being much more homebodies (as a general rule) than the long distance wanderers they often are out west or in poorer habitat areas."
This is always interesting to discuss. I can name a few places in my area where coyotes have been known to live for years. I'm talking small woodlots...30-40 acres. People see them very often spotting deer. Never really wandering away. Coyotes are still a novelty in my immedieate area. I have only ever seen 1 spotting in the townships I trap. I have heard them on one or two occasions. And I saw one in one of my traps this year...LOL.
Steve, In the coyote studies, what seemed to be the barriers of travel? Roads, homes??? Do you think population effects travel...or is habitat the determining fatcor?
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Post by 17kiss on Jan 16, 2004 12:05:50 GMT -6
The biggest problem i see around here is a coyote either beelining to set and short stopping the set. Or just walking by and making a slight detour towards set and continuing. What would cause this ? Used to have the old turd next to set problem but graduated from that one. Now I see alot of indifference to sets. And I am using very good lure. I am thinking of mixing more flat sets in close proximity to dirtholes may solve some of this. We have many , many trappers around and sometimes I think they just get bored with going iut of their way to smell a set/
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 16, 2004 12:31:14 GMT -6
17kiss, I think you answered your question almost completely. With the amount of trappers down there, and the number of sets that some of these yotes are seeing, set avoidance may be caused by the set types and the use of lure period. This probably wouldn't happen at the start of the season but now I could see cyotes avoiding anything that resembled a constructed, lured set. I think what I would do is go out in the snow and identify pinch points in well used trails and blind set them. Maybe not as glamourous as luring them in to a dirt hole, but with these particular critters it may be just the ticket.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 16, 2004 14:43:28 GMT -6
17kiss- when I first started trapping coyotes- I had very, very limited success using dirtholes. Now part of that of course was due to not having a clue as to what I was doing- but a lot I feel is in the construction of dirholes. A lot of the old advice was that in high competition areas- dirtholes were ineffective and other sets had to be used.
And I am sure that is true to a degree. But also to a degree- I just believe that a plain dirthole- isn't the best coyote set around. Part of it is I think the construction of the sets I was making made it way too easy for the long legged coyote to satisfy his curiosity without having to work the set.
And curiosity- in my mind- is the coyotes Archilles Heel. As we talked earlier, visuals play such an important roles in how coyotes work sets.
Which is why flat sets work so well- the curiosity factor increase when the source of the odor is indefined.
Lets assume something. I believe it to be true that coyotes have an uncanny ability to recognise their territory and to KNOW when something has been added or changed. Take this new hole suddenly appearing along the lane. Not only a new hole- but one smelling very oddly. What happens?
I think the coyote says- whoa, slides to a stop, tilts his head and looks things over. He then either moves closer, fiddle faddles around- or leaves.
Its why I believe strongly in multiple attractants at a set for coyotes- whether 2 lures, 2 baits or 1 of each. The more triggers- the more curiosity takes over.
CoyoteDuke- What you describe is exactly what is happening around here with my coyotes. Food is good- plenty of cover, water- the coyotes don't have to go far. More importanly- the pups don't have to go far in dispersal- and I don't believe we have dispersal here like you read about- I think we have more of an absorbtion- that is, the pups just move over a little. Keep in min too- the overall young age of farmland cooytes. Very preliminary studies here have shown almost a complete turnover in 2 years in our collared coyote. And when I kept records on weight and age last year- most of what I thought were 2-3 year olds- were actually yoy.
But boundarys are really interesting- and none more so than Co road #2 here. This road is just a straighht strech of 2 lane blacktop- fields all around..and never has one cooyte from one side been tracked on the other side of the road- and visa versa. Yet we do not see this on any of the other similar roads that pararall it or criss cross it. Very odd.
And something else that was very apparent- the social areas. Some of the coyotes we caught and collared were in the middle of their ranges so to speak. You usually knew about where they were going to be- and could be found in and around the catch site pretty regularly. But a second pattern imerged- we noticed that at a couple of the areas- if you have seen my pixs and heard me refer to the "T" thats one of them- we would collar a coyote- and he would very rarly be noted there again. Its like 1 spot was bordered by a bunch of spots- all touching at the social area. This strongly hints that the coyotees were colored at a neutral spot so to speak- and not on home range. Spots they drfit through occasionally- but not an everyday event. But with all the local groups touching the site- you had a lot of coyote action.
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Post by 17kiss on Jan 16, 2004 14:59:29 GMT -6
Steve , I also agree with multiple attractors , have been doing for years now. I have tried deeper holes also to increase curiosity. Visuals are somewhat limited because of exposed bait laws.Plan on trying T-bone set next year. I like the idea of bone as attractor because of color contrast. What would hurt to dye some black for winter use? Been using wool as a holder this year and like that also. Used to use alot of 3 mousehole sets(basicly a walkthru) with 3 different scents. that was back when we had alot of fox. wonder how that would work on them?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 16, 2004 15:18:50 GMT -6
I use a lot of those mouse hole type walkthroughs. Tell me this jim- are your holes more vertical or more horizontal? I think with coyotes- either stepdown set with a verticla hole that he can't see into until he committs or vertical wobble holes.
Slim is right on concerning foot placement compared to hole angle - and I think the curiosity factor causes the the same thing.
jim- check your PM
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 16, 2004 15:48:14 GMT -6
I started using those walkthrough mouse holes this season, always used verticle holes, but found more success with staggered alignment holes rather than having them in a straight line with traps between. Not sure why, but with a three hole mouse hole set up, I did better with three holes staggered, with one trap between them, than having three holes in a line, with two traps between the two end holes and the middle hole holes. Like this o x o x o
This worked better o o x o
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Post by 17kiss on Jan 16, 2004 16:06:39 GMT -6
DJ , ypu mean this 0 0 ? x 0 That is what I used to do. Worked great , still dont know why I changed. Yep , it moved for me too.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 16, 2004 17:11:34 GMT -6
Interesting note- I have to say that I found for coyotes, that a triangle pattern worked best.
I do stagger holes- work them in around clumps to produce a natural walkthrough- but given a choice will make the pattern of
____________________ O O
X ______________________
With a guide behind the trap- in pastures a weed clump dug up and imported in works great- my prefered guide...if not a rock, clod or cowpie do the job.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 16, 2004 19:44:22 GMT -6
OK, I got Lynn to do my sets as an illustration. The Xs are traps, the Os are lure holes, The ^ and V are the material that makes the edges, in this particular case a composted manure pile that was left out in the middle of a harvested field. The straightline was a bummer, the same location set up in the triangle produced 3 nice foxes.
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Post by 17kiss on Jan 16, 2004 21:13:52 GMT -6
All right will try to explain my version clearer. On one side aginst some sort of small backing I punch 2 holes , bed trap tight to them , at other side I punch one hole with a small rock or such as very small backing/ foot guide. The trap is actually in the triangle this way. oo x o
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