The 2nd ULTIMATE can of worms...

[trappnman]

Human scent.

My first and fondest internet discussions were on the subject of how much human scent influenced our canine success. Enough time has passed by since this horse has been beaten- so lets hear it again...

Is human scent an important factor or is it highly overrated?

I know there are going to be different views- so don't think that because people are disagreeing with you that your opinion is wrong. But hopefully, if the discussion approaches the old lost archive posts in any small way- we all can learn a little.

Let me start. I think human scent at a set location is a vastly overrated issue. Way too much time and effort is spent worrying about scent and its consequences.

Too many beginning canine trappers, when faced with the inevitable problems associated with a canine line- immediately think "aha- too much human scent" because that was (is) the advice in books. and while there might be some truth in that- it really is the last of the novices worries.

Consider this- a dog tracks direction of his quarry by the minute amount that the freshest track smells different from the preceeding tracks. In other words- each track smells different- newer. (is this fact- no- but it is the accepted belief).

A hound has no problem determing freshness and direction. Most hounds will smell "odd tracks"- we call it "looking happy". Most times- these tracks are faint and hold little interest. Exceptions are hounds that are "cold nose" dogs- dogs that either have a super nose or haven't the ability to determine fresh vs old. Cold nose is either a virtue or a fault- determined by degree.

I have told the true story of Mollie many times. I'll sum it up here. A baby was kidnapped and the car was seen going out onto the interstate. Mollie (the bloodhound)was taken on the interstate- and at each exit- was walked up and down it. At every exit-nothing. then Mollie indicated this was the right exit. THEN- at every intersection- Mollie pointed the way. The car was found and the baby was recovered unharmed. This was filmed AS IT WAS HAPPENING. Blew my mind.

So you are never, never, never going to convince a coyote that you weren't there- he will know- YOU WERE THERE.

But- he also knows - YOU ARE NOT THERE NOW. And I strongly suspect that you not being there for an hour is the same to a coyote as not being there for a week.

2 years ago- I kept track of how many coyotes were taken the next day in traps 1) set before noon and 2) traps set in the afternoon. I saw no difference. I was just as apt ot catch a coyote the next day in a trap set at 8 in the morning or one set at dark.

So why bother trying to make him think you weren't there? It's not going to happen. The best you can do is to convince him that you were there, but did nothing to interest him.

but thats a story for another day...

[Mark]

Well,

I believe it to be true that a coyote will swell you, but some human scent factors can ( I believe ) be important to a canine trappers success. Having human or other scent on the trap is a no-no. I think that pan tension, trap tuning, natural looking sets, and of course location are more important than scent. I still think that it is reasonable to try your best not to leave scent when possible. As little as possible anyway. No reason to spend a lot of time at it as the longer you are at the set the more scent you will leave.

Mark

[coonwhacker]

I have heard of alot of canine trappers who set bare handed. My question is, does it really make a difference if you set with gloves or not? Will you still have the same number of catches if you set bare handed as you would wearing gloves? From what I hear from those bare hand trappers, you just need to keep your lure and bait odors away from your traps to keep the set clean.
mike

[yota]

It's hard for me to reply because too many of you are coyote based and while I am not a coyote trapper I've done my share of the foxes.

Human scent, the old attache about not touching clean traps with ungloved hands to me is BS, I've caught hundreds of red foxes doing so.

Contamination comes in many ways, be it bad wax or in skunky or contaminated with coon and possum nuts or rust.

Place a rusty trap into the ground, lure it, urine it, and leave it be.......................in time you will catch a canine there whether it is a fox and I believe a coyote.................it's acclimation in a canine's home field where he is accustomed to every sight, sound and smell. A rusted trap wil catch you a fox in the long run but what about the clean trap that begins to rust after you set it such as a dog? #1 don't think that the fox or coyote don't know that somethings up, after raising them for years you ought to see what their sniffer can do.

I used to worry even about the rust that would start at day one or two from taking my knife and scrapping away the wax from the dog in the pan knotch..................so what's clean, not clean, and is there anything in between..........I actually believe the later

[trappincoyotes39]

Ok here it goes, can you catch coyotes bare handed, yes can you catch a high % of those that work your sets in your area? I would say no to the norm, areas with 10-20+ coyotes per sq mi, you can catch them on about anything anywhere just because the shear numbers and a big% being young naive pups.
Take an area that is trapped or hunted harder, your % will drop on the human scent issue not maybe total numbers, but watch howmany you catch the first couple nights versus night 4-10
Human scent will spook away coyotes and we all leave some, no getting around it and it is up to coyote numbers and coyote factors how many will work your set and your catch%.
Coyotes that live in a smaller home range and don't venture much, will see your set as out of the norm and have some sucspicion, why?? just becuae your dealing with coyotes, some are spooky and some aggresive etc, but the more that set stays there curiosty will get the better of them, couple that with human scent and in some areas that being a bigger than norm fear factor and you will find your set sitting a few days before a catch or multiple catches.
I have trapped areas of SD where coyote populations where high and had more 1st night catches and more multiple catches at the same set, versus areas of low density where coyotes are more of a waiting game and more spooky. The scent issue boils down to coyotes behavoir in your area and population desity, and how careful one is with all scent human, gas odors, and other foreign odors that coyotes in there home territory don't smell on a regular basis.
Forgive the rambleing I've been up for along time doing snow removal 14"

[mac]

One of my favorite topics. I started trapping back when the fox was thought of as an extremely difficult animal to catch unless one was as clean as a surgin. We did not have coyotes then, I never started catching them until the mid 1970's.
The very best fox trappers I knew took GREAT (for emphasis not shouting) pains to be clean in their methods. Traps were sterilied, dyed and some waxed. Traps were stored in air tight containers. Boots worn for trapping never went into the house during the season. Sets were made like one was doing brain surgery. I am serious, and I could go on but I think you will get the point.

Oh my how times have changed, at least for some. I have a friend that uses fuel based cold dips ( just a couple weeks before the season) on his traps.
He wears cotten gloves, hauls his traps in the back of his truck in open air containers, wears the same boots to set traps in as he wears to pump his gas, etc., etc.
This guy catches a lot, yes a lot of fox and coyote. Know I am well aware of catches through out the country, and we do not have huge populations of any furbearer in Maine. When I say a lot, for example he caught 73 fox and coyote by working hard and covering a fair amount of ground in about three weeks.
The interesting thing to me is that if anybody would have told me ten or twenty years ago that you could approach coyote and fox trapping with this guys methods and expect success; well I would have thought they were crazy.

I have come to think it is more important as to if the trapper has confidence in what he is doing, perhaps more important than all other factors.
Mac

[Ric]

The following opinion/observations are with human scent only.
I do not think it is possible to hide the fact that we have been at a set from a K-9 with-in any reasonable time frame.
That being said I also think that the odor of different people is different.Some people just plain spook k-9's others don't.Another example,confident trapper just sticking in a set VS Nervous,anxious trapper doing the same.
Trapping "clean" is not going to hurt anything.After a while you will detirmin what you can and can not do and still be successful.
For myself it is much more important to make sure nothing stands out in the trap bed than to worry about weather I left any human scent there

[CoonDuke]

I use common sense when setting and worry very little about scent left at the set. I keep my traps in a clean container, wear leather gloves, try not to get lure all over everyting, and don't smoke, spit or let sweat drip on my sets.

When a beginner asks me about human scent...I tell them, "Every time you get worried about leaving human scent, go and set another trap somewhere." Then they either stop dwelling on it...or have traps set all over the countryside...LOL.

[briankroberts]

[/Another example,confident trapper just sticking in a set VS Nervous,anxious trapper doing the samequote]

I Like that statement Ric , I also believe confidence is a must.

I wear leather gloves that stay in my clean box on the front of the 4 wheeler, only clean traps and tool that I use to make sets go in here, I Use the same tools on remkes, I use the Leather gloves that I ride the 4 wheeler with to make remakes.

I bait and lure barehanded, and adjust pans after a catch barehanded.

I had a guy tell me that if I didn't wear latex gloves I wouldn't catch any Coyotes, I told him I did and he said even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.

I think a lot of people go way overboard on the human odor thing and as far as cover scents or using urine to cover human scent, what about the drug dogs at the airport they can sort out different odors,
..................B...............

[dj88ryr]

Real easy, used to do the whole routine, just like a doctor going in for surgery, now, I do keep my traps in a plastic container after dyeing and waxing, but when I take them out it is with bare hands and they are set that way. I do not smoke right before setting a trap, I do smoke in between stops and then use a handi wipe to clean my hands, but even they smell. Too much time and effort is put into " clean " trapping as far as I am concerned. I have caught as many fox as I ever did by using bare handed setting as wearing gloves, IMHO gloves are for when you have cold hands.
As CoonDuke said though, I do use a reasonable amount of caution, I don't put gas cans in the back of the truck with my traps, and I don't store lure in with the traps.

[trappnman]

Having human or other scent on the trap is a no-no.

Do gloves keep human scent off traps? Dogs can trail people in moonsuits. My hounds routinely trailed me wearing rubber boots.

I still think that it is reasonable to try your best not to leave scent when possible. As little as possible anyway. No reason to spend a lot of time at it as the longer you are at the set the more scent you will leave.

I agree. In fact, I was told by one of the presenters in the NTA video that it took many retakes to get the sound, lighting ,etc done- if I recall- into the second day- and the set took a much longer than average time to connect. but it DID connect.

Will you still have the same number of catches if you set bare handed as you would wearing gloves?

I think yes. BUT- it takes no longer or costs no more ot use gloves at the set. I do use the same leather gloves, fresh or remakes- and I have these laying on the seat more times than not.

Human scent, the old cliche about not touching clean traps with ungloved hands to me is BS, I've caught hundreds of red foxes doing so.

I think most would agree.

A rusted trap wil catch you a fox in the long run but what about the clean trap that begins to rust after you set it such as a dog? #1 don't think that the fox or coyote don't know that somethings up, after raising them for years you ought to see what their sniffer can do.

I agree. In fact- I know that a rusting trap spooks coyotes. I bumbled and stumbled and figured it out on my own- but sure was gratified when I read "Hoofbeats" and saw the same conclusion.

Take an area that is trapped or hunted harder, your % will drop on the human scent issue not maybe total numbers, but watch how many you catch the first couple nights versus night 4-10. Human scent will spook away coyotes and we all leave some, no getting around it and it is up to coyote numbers and coyote factors how many will work your set and your catch%.
Coyotes that live in a smaller home range and don't venture much, will see your set as out of the norm and have some sucspicion, why?? just because your dealing with coyotes, some are spooky and some aggresive etc, but the more that set stays there curiosty will get the better of them, couple that with human scent and in some areas that being a bigger than norm fear factor and you will find your set sitting a few days before a catch or multiple catches.
I have trapped areas of SD where coyote populations where high and had more 1st night catches and more multiple catches at the same set, versus areas of low density where coyotes are more of a waiting game and more spooky. The scent issue boils down to coyotes behavoir in your area and population desity, and how careful one is with all scent human, gas odors, and other foreign odors that coyotes in there home territory don't smell on a regular basis.

A lot of truth there. Regarding smaller territories and spookiness. I believe a coyote in a smaller territory is much more intimately knowledgable about the things in it- and a fresh set will be immediately be noticed as "new". How he reacts to "new" does indeed vary. My contention- in areas with an active human population- ie most of the upper midwest, east and south- he is going to react more to the visual rather than the faint human scent. After all- he comes acrosss human scent all the time- he would be a nervous wreck if he bounded away on each occasion he comes across it. To a coyote its obvious- "he was here- he ain't here now"

The interesting thing to me is that if anybody would have told me ten or twenty years ago that you could approach coyote and fox trapping with this guys methods and expect success; well I would have thought they were crazy

Exactly.

That being said I also think that the odor of different people is different.Some people just plain spook k-9's others don't. Another example,confident trapper just sticking in a set VS Nervous,anxious trapper doing the same.

Perhaps so. I do know that confidence breeds confidence and that success breeds success.

But is it a case of cart and horse? That is- a trapper that has been successful WILL BE confident..thus "leading" to success. And the nervous trapper is probaly mnervous because he HASN'T any confidence- from lack of skill most likly- thus, his sets would catch less.

Trapping "clean" is not going to hurt anything. After a while you will determine what you can and can not do and still be successful.

For myself it is much more important to make sure nothing stands out in the trap bed than to worry about weather I left any human scent there

I agree.

When a beginner asks me about human scent...I tell them, "Every time you get worried about leaving human scent, go and set another trap somewhere." Then they either stop dwelling on it...or have traps set all over the countryside...LOL.

LOL. BTW- I sweat like a madman in summer and early season- doesn't seem to matter

[jsevering]

I pretty much dont worry about leaving human scent, while making a set, cant be avoided.

I do use gloves to handle my traps, mostly to keep any lure that got on my fingers off them.

the human scent I try to advoid is the trail to and from the set, day after day. like to set the trap and check from a distance. Trapped with a couple of fellows over the years, that would have a hog wallow beat right down to the set, three trips back and forth for this or that on a remake,or gotta go right to the set and play with this or that.

To me that just enables you to get patterned quicker by the canines your going to be tring to pick off at your easy locations you want to work through out the season.

the guys Im refering to would get bent out of shape and complain when they could see their hog wallow in the snow back and forth, but never gave thought to the trail the canines nose saw in the fall.

out of site, out of mine, or out of site no mind (lol)..jim

[Zagman]

I think many of has who have been around for a while have gone through a gradual, learn-as-you-go, evolution. We were all taught the ultra-clean voo-doo methods: wax and die your truck, chest-waders at the set, two pair of boots (one for gas-pumping/Pop-Tart buying and the other for set making), spraying urine on your packbasket, trowel, pants, Mom, etc.

Then, with seasons going buy, confidence building, and successes, you gradually learn ON YOUR OWN what you can really get away with......

Examples:

You are making a set and the farmer pulls up to you in his tractor, gets out, leaves the machine running,....your pace quickens, heart-beat increases, and you start thinking, "I'll never catch anything here"......before he gets in the tractor, he spit 4-5 times....

Next day......coyote or fox. Hmmmm.....

Or, the farmer comes down the lane with his three maggot kids, they all jump out, asking tons of questions, pulling weeds with their bare hands, stomping all over.....crap, wont catch a thing here.

Next day.....bingo.

Or, a lima-bean-size gob of snot drips out of your nose or a bead of sweat from your balding head, right on the edge of your pattern.....man, even though you dig up 4 inches of dirt all around it and carry it away with you to the next county, you KNOW you will not catch a thing there.......Next day, yep, bingo again.


Or, in your haste, you touch a trap with BARE HANDS, but you are in a hurry and set the trap anyhow......no chance there, right. Nope.....bingo again.

Or, even though you know a new trap set right before dark does not have a chance of connecting that night, since the scent will not dissipate, you set one any how....next day, gnarly coyote.

Or, your Dad is riding with you and after you make a double set and are getting back into the truck, you see him pulling up his zipper after emptying his bladder within 20 ft of your set. Gee, thanks Pop.......Two days later, nice fox double.

My point is that I think it is correct to learn to be clean at the start, but most trappers (except for the vaccuum that exists and apparent super-shy sub-species of coyotes that live in the U.P.) gradually evolve to being somewhere in the middle.

It's actually a de-evolution, backwards.......we start walking erect and gradually end up being bent over and hunch-backed.....but not crawling and slithering like a dirty slug.

Zagman

[Edge]

but most trappers (except for the vaccuum that exists and apparent super-shy sub-species of coyotes that live in the U.P.) gradually evolve to being somewhere in the middle.

HMMMMMM.

What is your source for this information?
I can see where pressure on yotes will change their behavior,but a sub-species?If you don't trap the UP already,you can join me anytime,I will put you on yotes.

[Edge]

As far as the scent thing goes(so many good replies I didn't want to add any.)
I dye and wax traps,I lure with gloves on,other than that,I wear gloves even less often than I wear a hat.
At remakes,I make no effort whatsoever in being scent-free(which is impossible anyway,humans smell,thats the way it is.)Yet,I still wear gloves if I re-lure....don't want any extra scent on the next trap.
I'm not super conscious of where I spit,although I try not to spit right at the set,I make no effort to be a certain distance away when I piss.
What I do works for me;each to their own.

Edge

[trappnman]

LOL- Zags remark wasn't directed at you Edge- it is just in the past, UP canines have been said to react in totally different manners than coyotes elsewhere.

Mainly 1) wil not eat roadkill carcases and 2) ANY human scent will cause advoidance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that reasonable procautions can and should be used- why not?

I have noticed many of the same things Zag mentioned concerning other people at the set, etc. The point really was brought home when I was doing the collaring work- I'd often have 2-3 people out on the line with me-and we would be at the set for a half hour or more.

No difference.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I do think that daily patterns can be a problem- yet I see all the time where coyotes use the same paths I do during the winter. Granted- i'm not walking them every day- about every 3rd day.

I guess I see this is summer also- that is- I can be gopher traping a farm and I see where coyotes follow me to sets- but there they are coming to eat the gophers and I suppose i'm just the farmer to them- a very familar smell. And I am all over the field- not just a path in and out.

I do not walk up to coyote sets daily- I'll drive by or glass them. If no catch- every 3-5 days I'll inspect closer.

----------------------------------------------------------------

All I can speak about is farm country- and here I find the visuals at the set- what a coyote sees when approaching- do more to determine his overall "caution" or "spookieness" if you will than any scent you leave.

My summer trapping is often done in shorts and tennies- I'm leaving scent all over and it doesn't seem to be a factor.

----------------------------------------------------------------

[Edge]

I've had my sanity questioned(well,lots of times)but specifically related to this issue;taking my kids on the line.
Trapline records indicate that I make fewer sets in the course of a day,but the catch rate is not down.my daughter sneezed right smack on a double dirthole...apparently no lasting effects as the set was successful.
Coyotes eat roadkill.
Coyotes in my area do not,however,hit big baits in the open until they are really aged;I don't know why,I just obscure big baits to avoid the problem.So many freakin eagles here now that you should hide a big bait anyway.
Interesting farm related experience,yotes were kickin my rear on a farm til I borrowed a pair of barn boots....you could smell thes boots from 10ft in a cross wind(inner OR outer boot)catch picked right up tho....gotaa do what ya gotta do.
Anybody that thinks they are totally eliminating human odor needs to develop more respect for the nose of a coyote.

Edge

[Zagman]

Edge: that was a tongue-in-cheek jab from the old Trapperman Forum days.....the coyotes there apparently act different than any where else and it was always a source of arguments, disagreements, and therefore, entertainment.

MZ

[Edge]

OOOOhhhhhh,I get it.
I'm a little slow sometimes,really slow other times.
I used to think that UP yotes were very tall;come to realize its just that I'm ...not.


Edge

[trappnman]

I used to think that UP yotes were very tall; come to realize its just that I'm......not.

bawhahahhaha

(Now I know why NL keeps telling me how big his mink are...)