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Post by lb on Feb 15, 2007 10:51:47 GMT -6
You're right, fish and I should not have bit the bait. Confuse is a much better term and I don't usually like to play games with word definitions.
A coyote driving a car; intellectually honest?
Good hunting. LB
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Post by ToddMiller on Feb 15, 2007 11:05:52 GMT -6
I'm not playing games with you! Don't have time for it. just stating that what your describing as unnatural behavior (being attracted to a scent) is completely natural. Also, I'm saying you are not COVERING UP human scent to the extent of fooling a coyotes nose in to believing a human is not present. If this is what you mean your being dishonest. sir.
No word games just being truthful.
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joe
Skinner...
Posts: 67
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Post by joe on Feb 15, 2007 11:08:08 GMT -6
Where can a guy buy a gallon or 2 of rabbit urine to make some confussing mist?
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Post by Mike Tucker on Feb 15, 2007 11:53:30 GMT -6
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Post by fishhead on Feb 15, 2007 11:55:26 GMT -6
Joe, the coyote urine is not all that hard to find, but the rabbit urine sure is. You can always go out and kill some rabbits and empty the bladders, I'd rather buy it though. Thanks Mike, I guess we posted at the same time.
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Post by cdog911 on Feb 15, 2007 13:04:46 GMT -6
Hey Rosie, Maybe a couple were a bit put out by it, but more then not came up after the demo and asked for more information. I've been a trapper and a hunter a long time and if someone's too much of a priss that they get all bent about a little trapping/ hunting smell on them, maybe they need another hobby. As far as going into another online debate over simple verbage, the term that Higgins prefers, and which very likely best fits this discussion, is "confounding scent". I agree that there is no way to fool their noses. Ppl like Rosie can cite the abilities of narc dogs from what they've read, but I've worked with drug dogs and seen it firsthand. Frankly, I'd bet a coyote's nose is better than your conventional drug dog breeds. The concept here is and never has been touted as fooling the coyote or covering the scent. Too many people are so quick to form an opinion halfway through the remarks of another contributor that they fail to get the entire point. The intent here is to get the coyote to stop, even briefly, and offer a shot opportunity. No one expects them to set up housekeeping and if you do, you'll be disappointed. They will, however, move downwind (We all can agree on that I presume.) and when they get directly downwind, the picture will come into clearer detail as they encounter the smell of another coyote - one that they have heard ( thru your calling and howling). It won't happen that way every time and there are certainly circumstances where this technique doesn't apply, but like many of our "tools", it's in your tool box to use if and when you think it will work. Now, if you want to be skeptical, and there was a time, I was, feel free. There isn't anyone holding a gun to your head. On the other hand, if you wanna lick Rosie's boots and deprive yourself of the chance to see something really cool, even if you might have to admit you were a wee bit quick in your misjudgment, give it a try. I've taken diehard old school callers out and blown their minds with what this can do to a coyote in your scent line. I've got witnesses, as does Leonard and Rich. All some of you skeptics have is tunnel vision. Your loss.
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Post by blakcoyote on Feb 15, 2007 13:23:04 GMT -6
How effective would deer/coyote urine be,compared to rabbit/coyote urine.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Feb 15, 2007 13:32:14 GMT -6
lets look at this objectively- there are 2 simple points here- cover scent & confusing scent (for lack of a better term- if its not quite yours, you know what I mean)
No one here believes that a cover scent works. And I have not read that in any posts. You aren't to going to fool a coyotes.
Just as an side- look at the noses drug dogs have- most breeds used are not noted for their noses and imagine the nose of a good dog like a hound- one culled by generations of hunters to be breed for primarily good noses.
then take it a step further to coyotes being culled by nature for how many 1000's of years?
Nope, you aren't going to fool them into thinking you weren't there once- but they know you aren't there now- and the best you can do in trapping- and I'd guess hunting- is not to give them any other "cautious" indicators like bad visuals.
So the side issue, is the reaction to misting.
I have no doubt it works-
what interests me is how far, and how they react.
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Post by ToddMiller on Feb 15, 2007 13:37:43 GMT -6
No tunnel vision here Lance, just many years of recreational and competition coyote calling and trapping under my belt. Rosies boots? Nope, just common sense.
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Post by fishhead on Feb 15, 2007 17:01:16 GMT -6
Well heck, I got some coyote competition hunting under my belt also. Lot's of fun aint it, especally if you place or win. I'm also here to pay witness that misting does work, though I usually did it at night. blackcoyote, I like the rabbit/coyote mix, because I use rabbit sounds most all the time. I can't think what a coyote is thinking, but in my way of thinking the coyote hears a rabbit and heads downwind. Then it smells a coyote beating it to the rabbit that it hears and smells. Now, if I was the coyote I'd have to think about that. In the mean time I have the crosshairs on the thinking coyotes chest. What do you think, does that sound like it would work?
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Post by cdog911 on Feb 15, 2007 21:17:31 GMT -6
LOL
Making claims that a coyote thinks and guessing what he's thinking about is a dangerous game, fishhead. Beware...
Steve, I don't really know that it matters if the coyote hits that scent plume and thinks you're there then or were earlier. My guess is that they smell you nonetheless, but also smell another coyote. Or, for that matter, a whole slew of coyotes since most commercial pee is a mixture of mulitple contributors, and it's that smell that piques their interest.
As far as how far away, I've had them lock down at 60 yards from me, straight downwind, and stay there for over 45 minutes on video. Every time he'd leave, he'd turn right around and come back to directly downwind, then sit there, occasionally sticking his nose straight up in the air and inhaling deeply. Several times, he'd look at me and cant his head. Very comical to watch. Of course, this was an adult-sized coyote in June (1 year-plus old), in an area with very limited hunting pressure, and on a very humid morning, about 8:30 a.m.. My coyotes tend to stick around a bit better than what Leonard has always cited, but I think that's because his experience a lot more of this type of strategy from hunters. Mine don't see (smell) this, and the one I noted above was, again, in summer when his defenses were probably not expecting me. All in all, I've probably seen very good results from misting with about 2 dozen coyotes. I've had a couple hit the scent plume and go bug nuts getting out of there, too. Like all of calling, it's a crap shoot and a lot of fun, but worth the gamble.
As far as the breeds used for drug dogs, my limited experience was with German Shephards and Belgian Malinois. At the time, I also trained and ran English Redticks and Walker Treeing Hounds. I asked the handlers why they didn't use the hound breeds and he said they lacked the assertion and aggression a good protection-type dog needed. Apparantly, none of them had ever seen a coonhound go nose to nose with a big prairie coon. Funny enough, that same day, we were hiding baby food jars containing cocaine in and around my dog runs to see if the smells of the other dogs would throw the drug dogs off when one of the handlers thought he'd go make nice with one of my English dogs. Old Cody was good about sitting there calmly until you were inside the reach of his chain. That guy left with a new appreciation for coonhounds being anything but timid. LOL And I had to pony up for a new pair of BDU pants. That dog was a one handler hound and got very crotchety in his later years.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 15, 2007 21:38:01 GMT -6
LOL on the dog story-
I always like the looks of ticks on a hound. English are very houndy looking hounds...you know what I mean.
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Post by lb on Feb 15, 2007 22:09:59 GMT -6
Lance, I try to be objective and honest about what to expect when a coyote is downwind and you are using mist. Although I have had coyotes hang around for quite a while, I claim (very conservatively) that they will be stationary for about 5-10 seconds, which is plenty of time to get off an accurate shot, if you know what to expect and are ready.
Do they sometimes approach the stand, once they get downwind? Yes they do....sometimes, but I don't make any guarantees about that crap happening. All I promise is a decent shot at a stationary coyote, bearing in mind that this is a coyote that almost everybody will tell you is already lost, once he gets your wind.
On the subject of mixing deer and coyote urine. That is a question that is asked routinely and my answer is that it might work, but why in hell would somebody immediately begin to reinvent the wheel after being given valuable information about something that works? For all I know, elephant piss would work, but so does rabbit/coyote, so why fight it? In fact, I also know that bottled clam juice works passibly well, in a pinch, but it's not as good.
Good hunting. LB
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Post by blakcoyote on Feb 15, 2007 23:27:58 GMT -6
On the subject of mixing deer and coyote urine. That is sometime that is asked routinely and my answer is that it might work, but why in hell would somebody immediately begin to reinvent the wheel after being given valuable information about sometime that works? Good hunting. LB Not trying to re-invent the wheel lb,just that deer urine is easier to come by,locally.Plus figured deer are quite abundant here,and coyotes here eat lots of them.Just thinking too much,I guess.
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Post by lb on Feb 15, 2007 23:57:23 GMT -6
Not actually you, bk. Remember, I have heard all of this many times before, and was just recalling and reacting to all of that "thinking outside of the box".
I can't believe I'm getting involved in this? It's not like I really care if anybody buys my story any more. FWIW
Good hunting. LB
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Post by SteveCraig on Feb 16, 2007 0:01:50 GMT -6
Dwayne, I see no reason why it wouldnt work quite well.
Ahh heck Leonard.......what else we got to talk about! ;D ;D ;D Steve
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Post by blakcoyote on Feb 16, 2007 0:55:39 GMT -6
lb,I'm glad your talking.I'm always looking for things that'll give me an edge,mostly knowledge from guys like you that have the hands on experience under their belt.Thanks for sharin'.
Keeping busy Steve?
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Post by trappnman on Feb 16, 2007 8:45:33 GMT -6
lb- I don't see anyone disbelieving you here-
I do see people thinking, asking questions, speculating..and after all, isn't that what forums are all about.
My first thought was this- if rabbit pee and coyote urine work so well- then other combos could work better. You say you get 10% that stop at the mist.
Say a different combo gives you 20%? Say someone responding here says I agree lb- but found adding (fill in blank) gives me almost 50% success.
wouldn't that be worth thinking about?
Pee/pee might be as good as it gets- but logic- faulty or otherwise- tells me that if pee and pee work to stop 10%- that a good gland/ rabbit pee odor might be even better (dozs of ways to stop the clogging)
Or how about gland and BLOOD?
wouldn't that be even more natural?
Just running with the misting idea......
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Post by lb on Feb 16, 2007 9:58:42 GMT -6
"My first thought was this- if rabbit pee and coyote urine work so well- then other combos could work better. You say you get 10% that stop at the mist."
See? I didn't say that. I said they all stop, however briefly, and that misting would help you increase your kill ratio by 10-15%. If you didn't get a decent shot at an animal dodging through the brush, then it is most useful to know that as soon as he arrives downwind.....you will have a shot, when normally, without mist, they keep on going, and you don't get a shot. 10% more animals in the truck, minimum.
Good hunting. LB
edit: other stuff is too heavy and hits the ground too soon. That's why I cut the mixture 50% with water. It's a fairly delicate scent, as these things go, and it works, so why experiment with combos that might not be as effective? They say that Edison tried over a thousand different things for the element in his lightbulb, including human hair, before descovering tungsten. I bet he stopped at that point rather than experimenting with a thousand more?
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Post by edge on Feb 16, 2007 10:35:59 GMT -6
lb, If you ever find yourself in southern UT with some time to kill,I'll buy you a coffee.We have a stockyard/cafe with really good coffee.
Edison was asked if he felt bad about his thousand or so failures @ the lightbulb;he replied that he hadnt failed,just succeeded in finding a thousand ways NOT to make a lightbulb.
Predation control being what it is;I dont NEED any more ways to NOT call a coyote.I had never heard of misting til this thread,and as soon as I get some rabbit piss,I'm gonna put it to use.
Edge
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