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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 20, 2006 10:10:48 GMT -6
Tman you can find out reported damage from the aphis site for each state. You also must remember in many states without some type of damage program that a large% goes unreported, I know plenty in Iowa that the only one who knew of it was me. What you think coyotes don't kill because it stops at a state line? It happens in every state heck they take domestics from cities like LA and New york.
I have been to WI enough to know and have relatives that dairy farmed there for 35+ years, that baiting and WT deer hunting success have nothing to do with one another.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 20, 2006 11:52:44 GMT -6
I have been to WI enough to know and have relatives that dairy farmed there for 35+ years, that baiting and WT deer hunting success have nothing to do with one another. For a few it does,but the point was some have quit bowhunting because of the banning of bait,simply because they either dont have the time to hunt any other way,or dont know how,so you have less hunters that have to fill the void. And get this part of the whole situation,the DNR hires sharpshooters to shoot deer in the CWD confirmed areas,and they shoot over bait.So much for using sportsmen to save tax dollars. It just goes to show,that when you get right down to a problem,the DNR or pretty much any government agency deems itself more competent than the public.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 20, 2006 12:01:35 GMT -6
Good point,so why Is'nt it being transmitted to coon,coyotes,fox,rabbits,bears that eat off of bait piles as well or dead deer that are infected.
As far as the data goes,there is no proof that CWD is transmitted at baitpiles,the DNR has already admitted that,it's possible in theory but has not been proven.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 21, 2006 5:03:57 GMT -6
Good point,so why Is'nt it being transmitted to coon,coyotes,fox,rabbits,bears that eat off of bait piles as well or dead deer that are infected.
Because "aal"testing reveals it to only be found in cervids! I think you should read the reliable science done on feeding deer from your own state on the web!
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 21, 2006 10:41:00 GMT -6
Because "aal"testing reveals it to only be found in cervids! I think you should read the reliable science done on feeding deer from your own state on the web! They havent found any in cattle or horses here either.The claims on the DNR site are twisted to fit there management agenda.Here's a letter on the application of the WBFA. The group was started by a former conservation congress member in WI. he decided to start getting the word out on what's really going on behind closed doors.I have more on the issue if you want it,but wont post it here,I'll put it in off topics,because it's veering off this thread.I can also put you in contact with this individual if you like,he'll give you a little education on what's really going on here in this state,maybe he can show you how following blindly is a dangerous thing. Letter: WBFA Free Membership The Wisconsin Baiting and Feeding Association has been formed to unite the hunt and non hunt community that enjoy the rights guaranteed them by the United States Constitution to enjoy there land as they see fit. We are an unincorporated association formed merely as a grass roots effort to help unite each other in a stand against the bans being imposed. Soon recreational feeding and baiting will be banned statewide if we do not unite. The ban is not limited in term to bait or feed. Agricultural use of our land is now under attack. Food plots have emerged on the ban radar. Science has failed to prove other than theory that bait and feed spread CWD. Today focus has been directed to the landowner altering deer movement. It is our position that all forms of recreational land use alter deer movement. This is an abuse of power and must be stopped. Please fill out the attached slip and send in to be listed as a voice against this attack. We will assume all costs of advertising, mailings and, representation. Donations will be accepted but please do not send with membership. Just note your interest to cover costs on the slip and we will contact you. Detach and mail
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 21, 2006 12:34:31 GMT -6
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Post by akona20 on Jul 21, 2006 17:26:49 GMT -6
"why would you trust this guy and not the very people entrusted too look over your wildlife in your state."
Perhaps on the surface I wouuld trust neither party.
The DNR or EPA or whatever they call themselves have shown themselves capable of base manipulation by pressure interest groups. Read into that the word anti. Soemhow they believe that even in the most obscure areas the antis have some god given right to place on the record their faulty science and invective and the departments somehow believe they must listen to it and acknowledge it. Personally I swear that the next time I hear from some DNR person somewhere in the world that "The pro animal rights groups have presented a large amount of data much of which has not been tested by science but we are duty bound to place it on the record and to give it some weight in our final decision' or words to those effect I am sure I will commit mayhem.
If the departments were truly looking after wildlife there would be no state in which trapping was banned.
Democracy has its place but departments canvassing views on matters far and wide from groups and people that issues have never and will never effect is an abuse of the system and democracy itself.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 21, 2006 18:46:48 GMT -6
Most trapping bans have come from the vote of the people of those states and not the DNR's or game commisions. If the WI DNR had issues with baiting why not bring them up many years prior to CWD? Same with mad cow, you can't feed animal proteins to cows because it has been found to faciltate the disease, no different than CWD, just different forms of a disease, we would put baiting deer in a state like WI and there population ahead of science and run the risk of wide spread CWD for what reason? Again no one can tell me as black coyote states hunters are hampered because of a disease spreading concern that deer hunters are left with less than ideal situations to hunt deer. Not with that population and all the tools one can use to kill deer in the state of WI.
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Post by akona20 on Jul 21, 2006 19:22:31 GMT -6
"from the vote of the people from these states."
Short lesson in democracy. Part of how it works is that it protects the interests of minorities. It does it in a number of ways but one is ensuring that a group of dissenterested and uneffected people cannot push their view across a minority whose very existence is neither threat nor compromise to the majority.
Now by saying the majority voted for something like banning trapping is an abuse of power by the majority and it is an abuse of process by the legislature and the department concerned needed both a lesson in democracy and guts because it allowed such a thing to happen. The fact that these things ever get to a vote shows that the legislature has no confidence in the department's handling of the situation and / or falls prey to simple divisive politics that it was unable to handle. The loss other than rights is a tarnishing of democracy itself.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 21, 2006 21:42:21 GMT -6
akona I can agree, but when you put things to a public vote of the people majority rules. Game depts can have a side but if a state wants to put anything to a public vote and has legal backing not much can be done but get your word out and present the information. Out state has video lottery, I don't think the state would want to loose that funding source but a majority vote of the people could have it gone. A public reforendum vote. States need to change the laws and have certain issues controlled by the government when it best suited to be. Wildlife being one, that the governemnt oversees the wildlife for the benefit of "ALL" the people and not just a 51% vote.
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Post by akona20 on Jul 21, 2006 21:45:11 GMT -6
and there precisely is the fundamental key to fighting the antis in a democracy, the protection democracy affords to minority interests.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 22, 2006 1:08:13 GMT -6
TC,the DNR have been wanting to ban baiting here way before this CWD business,now that CWD is here they blame it on baiting,what a load of crap.No doubt CWD is transmitted through saliva and bodily fluids,so I guess the rut's canceled as well.If your as familiar with WI as you say you are,you would know that before baiting was legal in this state(if your old enough to remember that,I dont know)the deer use to yard up in the winter here,in large numbers.Now if that was true today and CWD came about,dont you think that CWD would spread faster in large herds of yarded up deer,than the small groups that we have scattered about now.Common sense would tell you it would spread faster in higher concentrations of animals,so eliminating the feeding and baiting of deer is eventually going to push these deer together in higher numbers were the natural food sources are.It's a no brainer.
On top of that we are even limited to how much deer urine or deer lures that contain urine we can use.I wonder how long it'll be when it starts affecting trapping lures.
As far as bias goes,it's obvious on both sides of the fence,read my thread in off topics,it's there just for you.
As far as the guys with Phd's,the same will happen with trapping someday probably,his Phd will trump any trapper out there with just a little twist like vandeelen's,where you present the fact that it can be transmitted through saliva and bodily fluids,then the spin comes from the DNR that it's spread by baiting.But nobody mentions the fact about the rut or the fact about the deer yards.You see it's all about half truths.
So what I'm getting at,be careful with the BMP's or any other group or study when it comes to trapping,if all the facts arent there or some things arent allowed even though it's common practice,it's because theirs someone out there with different interests at heart than the trappers.
I'm sure you'll rip what I wrote here apart as well,just remember I've lived here all my life and have seen this stuff play out this way before,it's nothing new.Life is never what it seems on the outside,I just want to make sure the BMP's represent trappers,not some guy holding a Phd that never trapped a day in his life,but some get star struck when they see that Phd.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 22, 2006 8:45:30 GMT -6
so I guess the rut's canceled as well.If your as familiar with WI as you say you are,you would know that before baiting was legal in this state(if your old enough to remember that,I don't know)the deer use to yard up in the winter here,in large numbers.Now if that was true today and CWD came about,don't you think that CWD would spread faster in large herds of yarded up deer,than the small groups that we have scattered about now
BC the rut is a biological process baiting is not! If you have bad winters like years ago you will still have large concentrations of deer at available food sources. Also farming practices have changed more edge creates more variety of cover and food, another reason deer spread out more! Also in the fall/early winter if I put out the right bait I can have big concentrations of deer as well coming to that bait correct?
To me I could care less if you bait or not, but when disease concerns are an issue and can have a major impact on your deer, then why be so short sided on the issue? If your DNR is all powerful and they want baiting banned for years why didn't they get it done?
Trappers and hunters are very knowledgeable people that I agree, but we all don't work for the CDC or have PH d's in the area of disease concerns and the such, somethings are better left to the experts in those fields. CWD is relatively new and with that you don't have a ton of data and as it is revealed then the more we will all know. Many states have spent alot of money on CWD and test for it every year to see how it progresses, that in my book is just good wildlife management.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 22, 2006 11:23:17 GMT -6
You would have large concentrations of deer at feeding stations if you were using large amounts of feed or bait,which is and has been illegal since baiting/feeding was allowed,10 gallons a day was the limit or 10 gallons at any one time,so you you couldnt have more than that period,now the limit is 2 gallons.You could never attract the 100's of deer that would concentrate in the deer yards.Another interesting thing about the confirmed CWD area,there was very little feeding or baiting going on at all,it is an area that has alot of farm crop and a very high deer population,I think it was close to 100 deer per square mile,around here it was 21 deer per square mile where baiting is still legal.
They've tried,but the the legislature stepped in.The data and reasons they gave isn't proof positive,and it's also a land rights issue.
From what I understand it may be new in the east.But it's been around for decades in the west.
The bottomline is,baiting/feeding,CWD isnt the problem.The problem is too many deer,just like any other animal that over populates,you get disease.And IMO CWD,rabies,mad cow are all the same,just a different strain. What needs to be done is to sell a license that you can just kill as many deer as you want for a season or two or so many a day and still register them,to get the deer herd down to a managable level,none of this paying $12 for apiece for extra permits,but I guess that would cut the DNR's revenue down too much in the years to come.In my deer management unit alone I believe they had something like 12,000 extra permits forsale,why not give them out out if you really believe the population is way too high and the disease risk is extreme?Money not management.What do states do when coyote levels get too high and are causing a nuisance and disease risk,they put bounties on them.But I guess the whitetail deer is too much of a holy grail and cash cow to do that.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 22, 2006 13:46:03 GMT -6
In my deer management unit alone I believe they had something like 12,000 extra permits forsale,why not give them out out if you really believe the population is way too high and the disease risk is extreme?Money not management.What do states do when coyote levels get too high and are causing a nuisance and disease risk,they put bounties on them.But I guess the whitetail deer is too much of a holy grail and cash cow to do that.
Free tags wouldn't be the answer for some as biologist see it as cheaping of a resource, reduced tags you bet 10.00 each but the mind set of many is if it don't have a rack then why shoot it. I know many shoot does for food, I do it myself but many want the horns more so than the meat. Coyote bountys are a thing of the past as you have way to much under handed issues to make them effective. The only way a bounty on coyotes works is nationwide all states paying the same for a set of ears, otherwise you have plenty of room for many to cash in on multiple payouts and importing of coyote ears from bordering states. It will take more of a mind set of people to harvest does for either their table or groups like Hunters feeding the hungry and donations of venision and you will see a delcine in deer numbers, many states have been doing more on deer population control issues and it is working slowly but many are gaining ground on high deer numbers. 1981 was first wild case of CWD in terms of disease relativly new.
From AHPIS website; Q. How is CWD transmitted? A. The exact mechanism of transmission is unclear. Evidence suggests CWD is transmitted directly from one animal to another (lateral or horizontal transmission). The route by which the agent is shed from the animalĂs body is unknown. However, experimental and circumstantial evidence suggests that indirect transmission from an environment contaminated with the agent appears to be possible. Transmission of CWD has not been associated with any particular feeding practice or regimen in farmed elk or deer. " Supplemental feeding of wild elk and deer, however, concentrates the animals and may contribute to disease spread."
From the CDC:Transmission CWD can be highly transmissible within deer and elk populations. The mode of transmission is not fully understood, but evidence supports the possibility that the disease is spread through direct animal-to-animal contact or as a result of indirect exposure to prions in the environment (e.g., in contaminated feed and water sources). Several epidemiologic studies provide evidence that, to date, CWD has not been transmitted to humans. Additionally, routine surveillance has not shown any increase in the incidence of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in Colorado or Wyoming
You think 2 gallons of dry feed a day keeps the deer spread out? You figures of 100 deer per sq mile and 21 deer per sq mile is this Northern WI versus southern WI? The north country is more mono habitat and having less carrying capacity than southern parts of your state with alot more edge and varying habitat. I would compair apples to apples when look at deer per sq mile and what effect feeding has or would have in different areas.
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Post by robertw on Jul 23, 2006 8:12:47 GMT -6
Just a comment , not a debate.
TC 37;"Free tags wouldn't be the answer for some as biologist see it as cheaping of a resource"
At some point the various DNRs are going to have to realize the COST of managing this resources (not just deer). Obviously there is a definite trend by some departments to just let Mother Nature take it's course and NOT manage the resource.
JMO, When hunters and trappers are the ones managing the resource and preserving human lives by keeping these animals from becoming public health issues then they DESERVE to be paid for their labor / time and fuel.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 23, 2006 8:34:54 GMT -6
At some point the various DNRs are going to have to realize the COST of managing this resources (not just deer). Obviously there is a definite trend by some departments to just let Mother Nature take it's course and NOT manage the resource.
JMO, When hunters and trappers are the ones managing the resource and preserving human lives by keeping these animals from becoming public health issues then they DESERVE to be paid for their labor / time and fuel.
Robert many are aware of this and that is why some have started private ADC license in some states and the industry is growing in many states. Many depts are aware of what you spoke.
Your JMO, sounds good to many but hunting is outdoor recreation and I don't see many states 1. Having funding to pay deer hunters for mileage without raising taxes, which just wouldn't fly. 2. Look at the popularity of all hunting, while we are getting older and need to recruit new trappers/hunters the future may change things but I really doubt in our life times seeing deer hunters compensated from any state. Again the outsiders looking in would frown on such an idea.
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Post by robertw on Jul 23, 2006 8:59:32 GMT -6
Tc37;"but I really doubt in our life times seeing deer hunters compensated from any state. Again the outsiders looking in would frown on such an idea. " It comes down to managing the resource or worrying about somebody frowning at the department. Which is best for the resource?
Most will agree that managing deer herds today is becoming extremely hard as more land becomes tied up by big money leases / trophy hunters. These herds are creating public health issues and increased insurance claims & rates. Some how state wildlife agencies are going to have to figure out how to do what is best for the resource "if" they want to what is right for the resource.
There is also the consideration of the growing problem of declining hunter participation because of these leases.
It is a VERY complex issue.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 23, 2006 9:46:43 GMT -6
Yes it is, very hard to get paying hunters to shoot does that need to be shot for true pop decline in deer herds, I see more states needing a program like WIA "walk in areas" like we have. A Sir charge on license sales pays landowners to allow public access during hunting seasons, a very well liked program and many landowners find out they can make as much, sometimes more from this program versus leases and having to have insurance to cover there butts, under WIA the state takes all liability away from the landowner. These areas are growing in acre size each year and does of both deer and antelope are being harvested. I have not been a big fan of pay to hunt the problem is only wealthy get the opportunity and many won't allow doe hunting because there afraid of spooking off the rack deer for paying clients. Many states are well aware of these issues and trying to find a balance that keeps the hunter and landowner happy can be very tricky. You have to try and get some type of balance otherwise you piss off either and participation will suffer not helping the resource at all. Some that have draw tags are making less and less 1 tag buck tags available and making more people buy 2 tag license where 1 must be a doe. Or offering 2 doe doe/kid tags for 25.00-35.00 that has been a help in some areas as well. Hunter and trapper number decline is something that is very important and is being addressed in forward thinking states and we need to get involvement for the future or it won't be a good thing for sure! Pitt/Robertson will suffer and anti groups would gain much more by decline in outdoors man numbers as well. Complex is correct as many have been hashing out and thinking of ideas for the last 15 years or so.
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Post by mustelameister on Jul 27, 2006 16:41:54 GMT -6
Rule clarification: Wisconsin coyote hunting season is open year-round.
Wisconsin coyote trapping season runs from approximately the end of October through the middle of February.
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