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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2006 16:52:02 GMT -6
Depends on soil but I don't use any stakes over 20 inches for this purpose. I usually set them to the side of the set so they also act as a guide of sorts. My chains are about 12". Remember, he dos'nt have to wrap around the stake, but as he makes his circles he will snag it and then he just goes nuts on it.
Your coon must not be very big then? I know midwest coons on a soft 1x1 14" in the ground of medium built soils would have that thing out and gone in not time serving the purpose you decribe. Also again I'm wondering if you are using 12" chain and 6" is above ground and you use it close enough for a guide you don't have stake wrapping issues? I have caught coons that take fresh trees twice that size and demolish them in no time?
I'm thinking this would also keep alot of pressure off the actual trap stake in case of coyotes though I'm not sure how long it would last.
How would this help with coyotes?
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Post by mkborders on Apr 12, 2006 16:58:37 GMT -6
You have to remember, the stakes I'm putting out are not for holding a trapped animal but to impede his progress. Sort of like what a mine field or similar obstruction is for.
Very often the animal will be jumping and pulling and he will loop the chain or cable off the top of the wooden stake. He is still secured however by the normal trap stake (in my case 24" rebar). He will simply fight the set some more, continue to circle and get hung up again. Concievably he could go through this process all night, but the important thing (especially in loose or sandy soil) is he is [most of the time] fighting something other than the rebar stake. At least this is my idea which has been born out against a couple of coon.
My idea about using this against coyote in sandy soil and open ground was suggested by Bob W. Bob was telling us sometime ago that his snares were several feet long! That got me to thinking about the options such a thing would provide.
So here is my idea. I set a normal snare in an open corn field and stake it 4-6 feet from the support wire. I use a normal double stake rig. Between the double stake and the support wire I drive a 1" wooden stake into the ground (10-15" deep) leaving 4-6 inches sticking up above ground. I then drive a 2nd stake beyond the double stake. So now I have all in a line; The snare, 1st wooden stake, double rebar stake, 2nd wooden stake.. Of course the wooden stakes are all within the predicted catch circle.
The purpose of all this is to get Mr. hardhead to fight and worry at something other than the Double stake . As near as I can tell a snared coyote will circle well over a 100 times judgeing by how torn up the gound is. As he does he will repeatedly snag one of those wooden stakes, fight, jump,chew, and finally slip the cable up and over the end of the stake. Just to do it all again.
I would think that would be a fairly worn out yote by morning without a lot of stress being put on the double rebar.
What do you guys think?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 13, 2006 14:22:04 GMT -6
MK borders are you trying to live market these coyotes or kill them?
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Post by mkborders on Apr 13, 2006 16:02:24 GMT -6
As far as Coyote, simply to hold them. However this field I work is an ancient sand bar. In some places I've driven 40" stakes and hit nothing that made me comfortable. Therefore I'm thinkintg about using this method just to keep his energy off my trap stake.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 13, 2006 16:31:08 GMT -6
If you double stake I would think you could snare them and hold them or find the trails coming into this area with good entanglement and kill them that way or use a kill pole or better yet drop the 1/8th cable and go with 5/64Th's 1x19 or 1/16th 1x19 make sure your running toothed cam locks and kill springs of some sort, much better than 1/8th and 1x19 is very chew resistant as well. The problem with coyotes is there lunger's and I don't foresee alot of good results with a wooden stake with them and keeping them from working the stake, they will almost always lunge until the end of a chain or cable that is where working in a good killing system and snares to be a big advantage with coyotes.
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Post by mkborders on Apr 13, 2006 17:02:55 GMT -6
You may be right and I'm just making things complicated. At least I got the coon from chewing his foot.
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Post by mkborders on Apr 13, 2006 17:05:03 GMT -6
Oh one thing though.
Indiana requires relaxing locks on any loop larger than 3",
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Post by trappnman on Apr 14, 2006 8:09:27 GMT -6
Wooden stakes were used for decades.
Rebar is more convinient in many ways- but more holding power?
I've always considered a GOOD wooden stake superior in holding power.
BUT- as MK says- diversions- which was all the wooden stake IN THIS SCENERIO was acting as- a simple diversion to reduce chewing on coon.
Thanks for thinking my theroy works, and giving it a try.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 14, 2006 16:00:08 GMT -6
I know what he was referencing- a stake to divert a coons attention.
He then wondered, would that work on coyotes also? Don't know.
Problem with wooden stakes is NOT holding, but its in removing. I don't use wooden stakes for this- and the general pain in the butt maintaining wooden stakes- but they do work.
A good solid below ground hardwood stake will hold as well as anything and better then some things in common useage. Just my opinion, of ocurse.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 14, 2006 16:32:52 GMT -6
Tman it is the connection to wood that I fear the most, even 9GA wire and a 3 day check I'm not going to trust it against a full blown crazy coyote! I want a steel to steel hookup as that is as fail proof as it gets for me and heavy soiled areas.
I have caught coyotes in thick sage and they either mowed it off or chewed it off but, you still have the lunge and the blown out circle same goes for yucca, so I don't see a wooden stake being any benefit to keeping them from working a stake or making the blown circles, any vegetation and it is knocked over,mowed off and lunging. With there size and power I just don't see a 1x1 making the grade for coyotes at all.
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Post by jeffc on Apr 15, 2006 21:31:38 GMT -6
If i was king there wouldn't be any govt trappers. Then regular trappers like me would never worry about losing the right to trap or bmps being shoved down my throat. What the regular joe civillian doesn't understand when they vote to end trapping is that it only ends it for us regular guys the G-Man isn't phased by referendums, bmps, or anything else for that matter.
Jeff
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Post by trappnman on Apr 16, 2006 5:00:25 GMT -6
the gov't trappers thing stops now.
To say gov't trappers impede their right to trap is... not true.
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Post by jeffc on Apr 16, 2006 6:22:23 GMT -6
The post was "If i was King" I just said what I would do "If i was King". I'm not saying they impede our right to trap but the FACT is animal pops will always have to be controlled and "If i was king" only us regular guys would be able to do it because Govt trappers or hunters wouldn't exist Thats all I was getting at I won't mention them again!
Jeff
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 16, 2006 9:24:46 GMT -6
Jeff a out and out jealous statement is all that was!!!! You claim to live in KS what beef do you have with Government trappers? I can tell you a good bunch of them are more than willing to go out of their way to promote trapping and it is not the job of a gman trapper to limit or deny access to anyones lands in the pursuit of furbearers! Part of the job is to promote sport trapping and furbearers harvest and I have let many know who have called where to find coyotes and cats in my area!!! I put on trappers ed and promote trapping to all who wish to attend, for you to say what you did has no fact or merit behind it period! If you want to travel state to state and take care of livestock depredation spring and summer with little fur value or help out your ranchers all summer long who is stopping you? Go do it! This is a free market society and if you want to be a trapper for hire get of your ass and get it done! Other wise quit with the comments and not having the knowledge to make such baseless accusations
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Post by jeffc on Apr 16, 2006 12:05:03 GMT -6
This is my final reply to this post. First off I do live in KS thats a fact that many members on here have seen with thier own eyes. Second Kansas if not the only state is one of the few without govt trappers. third I am licensed through the state to do ADC work so I'm not on my butt nor ever have been. the point i was making and i find it hard to articulate what im trying to say by typing it is this. Poisons were outlawed along time ago but gmen can use them. States that outlaw bait for trapping bears still allow the gman to use bait. dogs, type of traps, poisons etc etc can be made illeagal for average me but not the gman thats what im getting at i don't understand what accusations i was making that your refering too. Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander thats what im saying. If a state outlaws trapping but residents know they can still depend on a gman to get rid of flooding beaver well thats wrong to me they should reap what they sow do you think the beaver is happier being killed by a govt agent instead of me? those are the points i was making don't think i can make it anymore clear what im saying. It was "if I was king" and that will never happen so you don't need to get all riled up about it.
Jeff
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Post by trappnman on Apr 16, 2006 14:07:23 GMT -6
actually, thew intent of thep ost was what to do to correct the coon bmps.
but as far as your thought- gov't hunters and trappers are the same (and part of) as any wildlife service in any state- and they can do things that the general public cannot do.
here for example, the dnr can tear down beaver dams, poison fish, control this, protect that...
Nothing wrong with that.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 16, 2006 14:10:36 GMT -6
Poisons were outlawed along time ago but gmen can use them. States that outlaw bait for trapping bears still allow the gman to use bait. dogs, type of traps, poisons etc etc can be made illegal for average me but not the gman thats what I'm getting at i don't understand what accusations i was making that your referring too. Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander thats what I'm saying. If a state outlaws trapping but residents know they can still depend on a gman to get rid of flooding beaver well thats wrong to me they should reap what they sow do you think the beaver is happier being killed by a govt agent instead of me? those are the points i was making don't think i can make it anymore clear what I'm saying. It was "if I was king" and that will never happen so you don't need to get all riled up about it.
First of all sodium cyanide is not a fur harvesting tool! Never will be! Secondly it is not outlawed to ALL, some can get licensed to use them for predator control, their are landowners and a few others that are licensed to use them besides G-men, but along with the use comes the responsibility to use them and follow the 26 use restrictions they are a tool that is looked at very closely, to the point where you now take GPS locations on ALL m-44's placed! These will never nor would the public want these in the hands of all people and all states, they would just end up being totally taking away! They are a useful tool in the "right situations and they are not a blanket tool for use everywhere by everyone!
Co's can shoot deer year round, you and I can not it is under the authority of the Dept and they can not police all, that would take up too much time and too much misuse and abuse of the resources. Too many average joes would abuse the power and the g man and CO has to be accountable and fill out reports on use and daily logs and to look over this type of paper work could not be done for every person to time consuming.
If a state outlaws trapping do you think the majority of people even know about the g man? The very people using the service would vote not to outlaw trapping as they know what benefit it has to them, think about it ranchers/farmers who have trouble with coyotes how many aren't willing to allow callers/trappers on there grounds? How many in heavy depredation areas even though they have an ADC program say no to a caller or trapper? You say coyotes or beaver with most your in like Flynn correct?
You stated you have seen zero predation to calves and thats where your at cattle country, so without depredation why would you need to use M-44's? These tools are used to solve depredation complaints, not to be harvesting fur with! Or any poison what need to you have with zero loss? Or do you just want an easy way to kill coyotes for fur? You must remember the M-44's are something that if you misuse or abuse their use can bite you hard in the butt! With a GPS reading and a good topo map the EPA can pinpoint where you have every device set!
Your pissed because some are afforded different rules and regs than you IE: the governments, that is the way it works they can police a few better than 100's or 1,000's and if you think about your statement about loosing trapping rights for states how long do you think it would take for that to happen in many states if m-44's where given a blanket use classification? Try weeks of use! Time is of the essance when working livestock complaints the sooner you can get the offending critter the more money you save the producer, fur trapping and ADC are 2 totally different things! Many cover large areas and need these limited tools to perform their jobs in a timely and proffesional manner, doesn't matter beaver or coyotes they are afforded these stipulations to get the job done as quickly and professionaly as possible.
ADC trappers play an important role, they fill the voids with low fur prices and offer a service that ranchers contribute to. Some states need and want ADC programs because of livestock depredation and the ability to be able to call a person who is there 24/7 to handle these problems and build commitments with, not to have guys fly in and out on them. It is far easier to police employees of a program than to open all aspects up to private individuals or why not just have cops for hire and we will open all police jobs up by private bid? We could save a ton of money but what would the outcomes be in many areas? Good PR or Bad? What wrap would a policeman get in that case? You think we have dirty cops now, try an open bid for service with little policing of those in power.
You can either get over your jealous tendency's or join the ranks and become and ADC employee, but I can say in an interview your ideals wouldn't get you far!
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