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Post by Zagman on Mar 14, 2006 14:48:49 GMT -6
I got brought into the loop well into the process and was involved with Mr. Batchellor and others in NYS in finalizing much of the wording regarding staking, etc.
Does anyone have any knowledge or a list of who was actually involved in testing......
I know of only one trapper that was involved.
Zagman
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Post by Zagman on Mar 20, 2006 6:02:56 GMT -6
This is scary....
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Post by robertw on Mar 20, 2006 14:09:46 GMT -6
In a lot of instances (not all) the trappers that did the testing were government employed trappers (either state or USDA).
The number of "Government Trappers" involved in this study was one of the questions Samarro Trusso did not know but.....Promised the FTA Governing board she would get an answer for and get back to them...
This was at the National FTA Convention in New York (maybe 5 years ago?). I was a concerned member that sat in on the meeting and listened to Samarro's presentation.
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 20, 2006 16:18:32 GMT -6
The more that is revealed, the more I am thinking the same attitude is at play here as we are seeing in the NTA. And that is.....Trappers are dumb, lets baffle them with bullshit, give a few pats on the back, and mention their name as having been involved, then we can shove the whole mess up their a$$ sideways.
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Post by jsevering on Mar 22, 2006 6:22:18 GMT -6
Mark
carl lindsley, next hamlet over was trapping for the canine bmp, he works for dec.
stopped in to get some fur tagged (mid- late ninties) he was going over his equip., traps were all tagged with numbers to cross ref. to the field data he was suppose to collect.
carl has been a trapper and pretty much trapper friendly for years although like most of us he has his opinions .......jim
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Post by tomsnare on Aug 24, 2006 17:43:41 GMT -6
gary golja, a wildlife tech out of the Stamford office did the bmp on coyotes and maybe Sharrick was involved, I don't remember I don't socialize with them much any more so I'm out of the loop!
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Post by sinrud on Dec 16, 2006 19:30:35 GMT -6
Don't know who participated in this study but I do know one thing . . . My bumper sticker reads: "EAT AMERICAN LAMB - 10,000 COYOTES CAN'T BE WRONG!": Sinrud
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 21, 2006 16:38:26 GMT -6
They get dept employees to particpate because many fur trappers don't want nothing to do with or have the time to take 2-3 weeks of vacation for such a venture.
I know they have had problems many times finding enough trappers to take part. Maybe because many have the same views as some on this forum.
Sinrud if your bumper sticker is a crack at ADC it shows how little you really know about the programs.
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Post by akona20 on Dec 22, 2006 16:13:58 GMT -6
Well 37 perhaps those who want trappers to participate could come to this board and post their requirements.
Who knows what might happen.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 24, 2006 9:12:22 GMT -6
akona they get the word out plenty. I have a feeling peoples views and bad information they receive keep the majority from having interest in working these studies. Maybe pay and not being able to keep any fur plays into it as well. Bottom line tough to find willing trappers.
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Post by akona20 on Dec 24, 2006 14:41:52 GMT -6
Well regardless of what is said I am unable to understand why a general announcement could not be made on these boards just to see what happens.
I am not saying you will turn trapper one in the deal but then again you just might, what could the harm be?
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Post by bobwendt on Dec 24, 2006 15:10:16 GMT -6
nobody has ever approached me about it and I`m sure there is no other trapper in indiana that has foot trapped more indiana coyotes than myself, so it`s not like they havn`t heard of me or know I`m available 365 days a year. with all due respect to tc37, I can`t trap free anymore than w.s. personel can . so I`d need the same expenses and compensation. I think they would get their $`s worth out of me since I have a scientific degreed back ground also. I doubt they had any dvm trappers, or dvm data interpreters that also had a trapping back ground. but it`s all neither here nor there now. but I will say if it was made public trappers were needed, I sure never heard about it and have been in the thick of trade juornals and associations and the internet the whole trime.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 24, 2006 20:36:35 GMT -6
Bob all you do as the trapper is trap and your tech records info, ALL testing of the critter is done at the Vet Labs in WY and GA. They pick states to do the testing and also rely on those states that let them know they have interest in doing some testing. The word isn't direct to trappers "per say" they go through state game Dept's and they get the word out to trappers. Some testing has been done in PA and other states without ADC programs.
"Most" states have a BMP director in there dept with whom testing is run through and other BMP matters. I would think if trappers where to tell there game Dept's they have interest and the interest is genuine and something trappers were behind you would be contacted? Talk to your game Dept's, all who have an interest to find out more. I can tell you as of now all coyote,fox testing is done and I wouldn't look for more for awhile.
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Post by akona20 on Dec 25, 2006 1:23:52 GMT -6
37 you said above that they had trouble finding trappers to take part. The posting that followed was a suggestion that, given some robust BMP debate here, request for trappers to take part should be posted on here. A prominant trapper replied saying he had never been approached on any level or see requests to take part. Your last reply seems to imply that the process of finding willing trappers was somehow circuitous and that now it appears to be that it was up to trappers to tell their various game departments that they were willing to do BMP testing.
Well sir all I can say is DUH!!!.
Like there are various trapping boards such as this one that the word could at least have been got around and debated and you would have had at least a few takers and they would have been experienced and knowledgable trappers.
Perhaps as I have suggested all along that in the USA the BMP process is some sort of shell game run by people to get a preconconceived outcome. I will state again that the work done in Canada fars outweighs anything done in the USA on this matter and your most recent statement sure reinforces my views on this.
Now let me think who the BMP process and its recommendations most benefits.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Dec 25, 2006 8:09:43 GMT -6
know they have had problems many times finding enough trappers to take part. Maybe because many have the same views as some on this forum.
you mean views that those making protocal don't know crap about what they are doing?
for sure- thats darn right!
better to take gov employees who wel lknow where their butter comes from, to reaffrim what the bmp committee and the agencies that sign the chcks want them to reaffrim. Like the coon nonsense.
BMPS have lost any luster they once might have had. And any integrity.
in large part, due to BMP cheerleaders who don't realize that that actual trappers, know BS when they hear it, and to call that BS "top of the line knowledge" only shows the bmps in their true light.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 26, 2006 6:55:13 GMT -6
I will state again that the work done in Canada fars outweighs anything done in the USA on this matter and your most recent statement sure reinforces my views on this.
Whatever you want to "view" akona? Fact is CA and US has traded much data on trap types. They went down 1 road and the US another, in my opinion our BMP committee looked out for trappers far more than CA. AS fas as choices go.
better to take gov employees who wel lknow where their butter comes from, to reaffrim what the bmp committee and the agencies that sign the chcks want them to reaffrim. Like the coon nonsense. Steve still going with the conspiracy theory? We had NO, other guidlines than those in the trapper manual or tech manual, there was no cover up or shot from the grassy knoll. It wouldn't matter what you would have thought as a trapper at testing time, you ran the testing as printed, the time to make protocol changes was far before the testing manuals where printed. No secerts all info laid out in the testing manuals.
in large part, due to BMP cheerleaders who don't realize that that actual trappers, know BS when they hear it, and to call that BS "top of the line knowledge" only shows the bmps in their true light.
Your opinion.
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Post by bobwendt on Dec 26, 2006 8:24:20 GMT -6
the problem with this bmp stuff is it is like a test which brush paints the best paintings, with no regard to is the artist a true artist, a housepainter, or a kindegarden finger painter. it`s pretty tough to judge a brush without any idea who is using the thing. I imagine it would have been prtety tough for me to use say a softcatch #3, a trap i have probably the greatest expertise level with than any other man on earth, and be told to use "protocol" that I knew would show less than best results. but they weren`t interested in a minor alteration that might double the result level, only the use of the brush by a finger painter. and there in lies the failure of the system. the gov`t has assumed all trappers are idiots so approves only idiot proof traps. aren`t many of those are there?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Dec 26, 2006 9:02:26 GMT -6
no conspiracy theory at all- just being honest and looking at the facts. Employees of an agency conducting unbiased tests for that agency when that agency HAS a vested interest in postive outcomes of the test.
major conflict of interests ru nthroughout the bmp committee, bogus, kindegarden protocal on coon, makes those tests a foolish mockery of any serious coon testing.
Hey- we staked a coon out in the middle of a concrete road, and he chewed- darn those traps...
I'll gladly debate any so called coon trap expert anywhere, any place-
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Post by bobwendt on Dec 26, 2006 9:40:52 GMT -6
lol, only an idiot would stake a coon out on a concrete road. therefore it can be deemed the only trap for concrete roads is a box trap. but the rub is, even in a box trap , on a concrete road, the coon is so frazzled by the traffic, he prolapses his intestines out his arse and dies a terrible death pulling on them, all 20 feet of then ina tangle. now I`m serious. I`ve seen exactly that in a box trap. and on other occasions all the nails on a coons front feet off gone down to the first joint and bloody stubs and a dead coon in a box trap. so do they pass like a 220 conibear approved kill trap? the gov`t no doubt would say yes.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 26, 2006 17:08:42 GMT -6
Bob what is your complaint? The softy passed the BMP process on coyotes and fox!!!! The protocol was nothing out of the ordinary either. Staked solid,checked 24 hrs just as you use them now.
there in lies the failure of the system. the gov`t has assumed all trappers are idiots so approves only idiot proof traps. aren`t many of those are there?
Please explain further?
just being honest and looking at the facts. Employees of an agency conducting unbiased tests for that agency when that agency HAS a vested interest in positive outcomes of the test.
What facts Steve? Tell me what the vested interest is? NO ONE was mandated to take a role in trap testing NO one. We had the choice to do the testing or not to do the testing, some chose not and others chose to. Simple as that. We tested traps, that is what was to be judged the trap. Many,many traps where tested if they wanted a specific outcome why bother testing so many traps? Take the top 5 and forget the rest?
You can debate the coon protocol all you want the bottom line is: There are other trap types that perform better in any circumstances you can list, because the coon can/will chew if givin a chance. There is no 100% would you agree? To limit the ability of the species that chew, by design of the trap can only be beneficial to those species correct?
Many traps have under went modifications to make them better and many trappers have caught on to why they work better, yet some coon trappers will not or want to accept any modification of a foot hold trap for coons? I believe it was Pluger who went through many of his coon traps and modified them for the betterment of his coon line? Did he have to do it by law? NO. He did it for the equipment to perform better over a wider range of terrain and "protocol" if you will.
Was the Coon BMP the best it could be? I would say NO, do I think a trap designed not allowing the coon to reach it's toes with it's teeth as a plus for trapping. Yes! Can you get results without these traps You Have pr oven Yes! Can you do that to a very high rate? That would be debatable through testing. Do all coon trappers use your methods or trap your terrain? NO. A coon trap that has more versatility and limits chewing through design is something that would speed up many peoples trap lines, and it wouldn't matter what technique they incorporate the trap in itself would limit toe damage, is this a plus? Yes.
Trap modifications have improved both animal comfort and also the ability to hold the animal better than many non modified traps.
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