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Post by sinrud on May 17, 2006 19:14:14 GMT -6
TC, I see 1x19 as a multi strand myself to mean otherswise would mean just 1 strand of wire period, and neither 7x7 or 1x19 is a single strand of wire, to me the wire in a "singel strand would be 1 solid pieace in the size. The wording maybe flawed in your mind, some say tomato others "tomato". What you see is myopic! What I I understand you are a "government trapper" right? This affords you "allowances" that others have not so these issues don't really concern your trapping as they do others. Sunrud
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Post by sinrud on May 17, 2006 19:25:08 GMT -6
TC, I could see the problem with locks and I know the differance between a relaxing type and a kill type. It would be nice to have some standards amongst states but would be difficult to get them to all conform to the same thing, as many states have many different needs. I see no use again for relaxing locks, I think of snaring as a tool for dispatch and that is how I have always used them. Again the states that have went the route of live restraints then they have to come up with the rules and regs for their stateand define for their people what a relaxing lock is.Here we go again! Someone with no use for "cable restraints" . . . The BMP recently "defined" the relaxing lock (I think that's good cause most state will likely use it). But when there are several deffinition of a relacing lock how does a manufacture sell this? So "Lets create NEW DEFFINITIONS!" "LIGHT RELAXING", "MODERATE RELAGING", "FULL RELAXING" WHAT A DEAL RIGHT? ? Sinrud
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 17, 2006 21:39:08 GMT -6
The BMP recently "defined" the relaxing lock (I think that's good cause most state will likely use it)
Do you have proof of this allegation? Most meaning the majority? Where did you come to this conclusion? State by state Sinrud not blanket policy. Tell me the cam lock,the amberg,the nwrc lock are all going by the way side for the most part? Sorry I'm not buying that.
As far as my affiliation I care about private fur trappers and that is why I feel the BMP's can have a lasting positive effect for fur trappers, We all got started as fut trappers! We go to bat for fur trappers! I have never turned down anyone who wants instruction or wants to listen to my thoughts and ideas on fur trapping. So give up the notion the ADC man doesn't care about fur trappers pure bunk.
The cable restraint in IMHO is an urban tool only! The cost to run these every 24 hrs and you need to or have losses, doesn't make them an efficient fur tool. You are limited in areas you can set, you gamble with chewed cable and bloody mouthed coyotes. They would cost some fur due to losses and the ability of those states that have 48,72hr or longer checks because you could not let them go that long without a high rate of loss period.
A "snare" set to dispatch the intended species can be run at any check law and you know with a high% that the critter will be dead and hanging when you get there, I see it all the time. You use a lock that is designed for the purpose and long snares with dispatch springs you have little in loss. I run 5/64Th's 1x19 with toothed cams an I run a very low loss rate on 72 hr checks. I can set a "snare" anywhere the coyote tells me he is going, entanglement is a good thing! Same for beaver or coons I don't want live beaver or coons I want them dead as a dead critter can't chew,roll or fight the cable any longer. Most species succumb very quickly in a "snare", set construction remains intact to use the area again alot of times.
I know of no ADC trapper or long liner that would look to the cable restraint as an effective tool for control work or long lining fur in the fall/winter months that is just fact! Ask Bad Dog if these devices would aid him in his large taking of coyotes? Or would his loss rate climb to crazy numbers?
With the invention of bads that has helped the "snareman" and will continue to do so in many states. Those with a high urban population may seek out cable restraints, those that have less domestics and localized urban populations I would be fighting for "snare usage"! If a tool is to hampering by law then they simply will not get the use, again proven out in states like WI.
I hear all these people talk about entanglement as a bad thing, fact is it is not it helps a snareman to keep loss low and to be humane to the intended species. I had a wet bitch today in a "snare" you couldn't even tell there was any disturbance at all, until you got to within 3 ft and saw the coyote laying in the buck brush. Slip a new snare onto the cable extension and back in business in less than a minute and the set looks no different ready to grab the male when he comes down the trail. Also don't forget the thing with break aways if you want to open a new can of worms cable restraints recommend shorter snares which means lighter break aways because they can;t generate the force needed with a smaller snare and then in winter you need to add extensions to get the loop high enough in snow cover and you can't set entanglement, would I rather set up a pinch point in a cedar draw for a coyote or a wide open trail, spend more time fencing and camouflaging the snare and hoping for no chew outs? Give me 12 ft of 1x19 with an aggressive lock and those cedar trees every time. I'll have a dead coyote waiting well over 95% of the time. I have used snares for many years and I have tried cable restraints and I can tell you snares are vastly superior as a fur tool or ADC tool in every account. I feel for those that went and agreed to the cable restraint as their only option becau8se you get married to them no matter your check laws and limit your ability to snare where the snare "needs to be" but again state by state and I can only hope those with a strong trapper org and good game depts will see the need to keep lethal snaring on their books in many states as they are just more productive and user friendly. The cable restraints are a tool at alls disposal just not the best when it comes to trapping critters with cable.
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Post by sinrud on May 17, 2006 23:00:23 GMT -6
The BMP recently "defined" the relaxing lock (I think that's good cause most state will likely use it Do you have proof of this allegation? Most meaning the majority? Where did you come to this conclusion? State by state Sinrud not blanket policy. Tell me the cam lock,the amberg,the nwrc lock are all going by the way side for the most part? Sorry I'm not buying that.What I said is “ I think that's good cause most state will likely use it” This is not an allegation TC, it’s a thought or my opinion and based on what I have seen passed around. I am also refering to “most” as those states that already require relaxing locks. As far as my affiliation I care about private fur trappers . . . I didn’t say you didn’t care! I SAID: This affords you "allowances" that others have not so these issues don't really concern your trapping as they do others.Other than that TC, I pretty much agree with your post. Howver every post is an opinion, personal experience or fact and should be accepted as such. (If I were retired I could spend all my time reading and posting replys. Unfortunately I am Not so I don’t) Dick Sinrud
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 18, 2006 6:20:59 GMT -6
Sinrud I read your post it does show 7x7 in the manual but no where did it state as you wrote that multi stranded cable being only 7x7 and 7x19 in either the regs or the manual. As Tom stated and others think single strand would mean 1 strand of wire as the picture does show in the manual!!!! Also the manual is set up for new trappers I doubt many are going to look at that picture and say Boy thats 7x7 where is the 1x19 at? Also no where in Ohio regs does it state the only legal cable being 7x7 or 7x19 it states multi stranded cable as legal correct? Wouldn't you say that 1 x19 is 19 smaller diameter wires put into 1 larger strand? hence the name 1x19. 1 strand of 19 wires or meaning multi stranded?
A far as multiple snare use, the majority are not in any shape to be used over and over again, and with cable restraints and having live coyotes that number shrinks further. I have had cats and coyotes that hit the end dead and could use again but not near as many that couldn't be used again or that I would want to use again. Some people spread it further,if I see any wear on the cable then I replace it cheap insurance as my cable runs me 5.5 cents a foot. I'll spend the .50 cents and have a nice loop and fresh cable hanging there versus the alternative in most cases.
Tom wrote:I cannot speak for the "BMP" but I can tell you the NTA has a policy of not adopting or promoting the discretional use of snares only for restraining (or killing), but to demonstrate that both methods are legitimate and preferable under certain circumstances.”
That in my mind is an excellent thought to convey to all trappers. It seems to me that you have wording issues and you have that right, but it also seems that you think these to be law which they are not, and the only example you gave turned out not to be as portrayed. Ohio law does not exempt out 1x19 as not legal nor has it ever done so. Sinrud I have read sate trapping regs all no but quite a few and unless something is stated as being illegal it isn't illegal that why you have codified laws and regs. If a state has the wordage multi stranded cable and does not state exactly what cable is or is not legal then they would have a hard time in court.
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Post by trappnman on May 18, 2006 6:35:24 GMT -6
As Tom stated and others think single strand would mean 1 strand of wire as the picture does show in the manual!!!!
sounds like the "opinion" that formulated the coon bmps.
Opinions shouldn't be in a scientific treatse.
If if you don't know (collectitve plea to the BMP committee), then leave your opinion out.
Such as the opinion that coon should be trapped in non entanglement suituations, because was something we all "know", right?, that you don't do such a thing?
bad opinion, bad advice- leads to faulty, bogus results.
Now there a fact for you.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 18, 2006 6:53:03 GMT -6
Tman did you read sinruds post? "most" game Dept's recognize 1x19 as multi stranded and even the Ohio manual shows single strand as meaning only 1 strand of wire and a lock. This is not only my opinion but of many others as well. As far as the BMP study the 1x19 was tested and will have wordage to that effect once the outcome is evaluated. It truly is a wording clause issue i feel he has not only with the BMP but with states as well. If Sinrud wants to change wordage to "highlight" 1x19 as acceptable cable then fine, but just because the cable is not "highlighted" does not mean it to be illegal in many areas just not a topic of discussion for some. I mean truly in a scientific arena you could take all of this to the nth degree both with traps and cable devices. The question is, "Is it all needed to the outcome of use"? The we get back into opinion again.
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Post by trappnman on May 18, 2006 8:07:31 GMT -6
Yes, I read it and agree with his view. Seems obvious to me.
I remember when I was driving school bus. We had extra trips. A typical trip was 10:30 at John Marshall to Planetarium , return at 11:30. We would get paid for 1 hour of work.
One day, I said to the boss- why one hour? We have to leave here at 5-15 minutes early to get there, same on return. and I added- I know you are charging school district point to point.
He relied- what did it matter- it was just pennies?
I replied- it might not matter to you, but it does to me. I can USE those pennies.
Fair enough he said...so from that day on, the drivers were paid point to point.
What does this have to do with opinions and bad wording in the bmps?
Simple- it might not matter to you, but it does to me...
It obvious what the wording is- and some day that wording could bite us i in the butt. Cause all you are saying- is go by the spirt if the law, not the letter of the law.
Brother- with the bmps- we better cross our T's and dot our I's- cause sooner or later, as it always does- its the letter of the law that matters.
And you point out..they changed it..sure- under the direct threat of a lawsuit- I've seen the letters back and forth with Dick- and they changed it ONLY because of the threat of lawsuit.
Up til then, they had no inclination or desire to do so. The bmp committee and their diehard supporters act as if they are infallible and that thier words are etched on stone tablets. Thats the trouble with selfserving committees. fight the discrepancies and the outright nonsense (no entanglement for coon) now...before it does become the letter of the law.
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Post by sinrud on May 18, 2006 11:16:53 GMT -6
TC, Here are just a few state regulations restricting cable type taken directly from state web sites. Some states do not specify cable design (1x19, 7x7,7x19) but specify “aircraft or galvanized” material. 1x19 is not classed as “aircraft” and the majority of 1x19 is not galvanized. OHIO“You CANNOT do the following: Use any snare constructed of any material other than multi-strand steel cable.”NORTH DAKOTA“Snares must be constructed of galvanized or stainless steel cable of 1/16” diameter or larger (no single strand snares/cable are allowed).” “Following is a list of commercially manufactured and available snares that have been tested and meet the requirements (as manufactured by the company): 1) Hopkin S-hook, 2) Gregerson leg snare, 3) Gregerson neck snare, 4) Kelly (Amberg), 5) Snare Shop ND lock and stop system, 6) Grawe’s 12 ga bullet lock snare with release, 7) Sullivan Breakaway S-hook, 8) Snare Shop Breakaway S-hook, 9) Snare Shop Breakaway J-hook, 10) Grawe’s “Mini Mag” snare with release.”Another problem - NAME BRANDING. While these brands may have been “tested and meet the requirements” it leaves the assumption those not tested are not approved and therefore may not be legal. PENNSYLVANIA “Cable restraint—A galvanized stranded steel cable with a minimum diameter of 3/32 inches. The cable must be constructed of either 7 bundles comprised of 7 wires per bundle or 19 bundles comprised of 7 wires per bundle. . .”NEW JERSEY“Except when submerged under water or when set for mink and muskrat, all snares of the body gripping type used in trapping must be constructed of aircraft cable or crucible wire measuring 5/64- to 1/8-inch in diameter and be equipped with a swivel. Mink and muskrat body gripping snares must be constructed of aircraft cable or crucible wire measuring 1/32, 3/64 or 1/16 inches in diameter. . “While it doesn’t specify “multi strand” 1x19 is not “aircraft cable” and much of it is not galvanized. There is no such thing as “crucible cable”. All cable wire is “rolled wire” not formed from a “crucible”. (I know . . .picky,picky, picky.) WISCONSIN“Cable Restraint Regulations: Cable must be galvanized aircraft cable. 3.Cable must be of 7 bundles comprised of 7 wires per bundle or 7 bundles comprised of 19 wires per bundle. . .”Anyone interested in a copy of my “manufacture information” regarding cable can e-mail me a request. In “most” cases I should be able to send this as a PDF file but it is a very large file and may not transfer correctly. If not you can send me your regular mail address. I also have documentation on “our” recent research with BAD’s. Dick Sinrud Thompson Snares
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Post by sinrud on May 18, 2006 11:42:58 GMT -6
TC37 “If Sinrud wants to change wordage to "highlight" 1x19 as acceptable cable then fine, but just because the cable is not "highlighted" does not mean it to be illegal in many areas just not a topic of discussion for some.”I’m not asking or expecting “1x19 to be highlighted”. What I am asking is for it to be printed in BLACK INK - NOT WHITE INK! Dick Sinrud Thompson Snares
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Post by robertw on May 18, 2006 13:11:05 GMT -6
The sad part about all of this is that what is mentioned above is only the tip of the ICEBERG of problems!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 18, 2006 14:24:55 GMT -6
Agreed, the problem I have is those that want to portray the BMP's as villains because of a language issue. It was brought up and takin care of and law suit means nothing. States have the right to write their own rules and regs, it is nice that you have taken the time to enlighten them on cable verbage and I guess in some cases dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's could;d save some issues from popping up in the future, but as stated many states do accept 1x19 as legal cable and those that don't spell it out in their rules and regs. I use "ALL" 1x19 GAC cable and the majority of people I know that snare use the same thing. In fact I don't know many who do not use GAC 1x19 wire for snaring. You best enlighten alot of people that sell cable as they sell it as aircraft cable in a general term, I know true air craft cable is way too expensive in the use of snares at .48-.60 cents a foot but it is trapper slang I guess, as the spools I buy are all labeled 1x19 GAC.
The major difference between aircraft and commercial cable is the lubrication applied to aircraft cable, which provides substantially better fatigue life than non-lubricated commercial cable. Aircraft cable requires extensive extra testing, documentation and certification to meet military specifications.
A far as labeling items tested nothing wrong with that and as far as commercial break aways I don't see many they did not test that I'm aware of. If you have a break away get it on the market and see how it does, the fact is this testing was done with the ones that where available at the time. If more come out I'm sure they would be added as a legal break away if the state decided to do so and did what the others did performance wise and weight wise.
I have used bads for some time now and I always liked the Hopkins and the different weight ranges they come in, I also know John graham and I will be using more of the break away ferrules he has as each ferrule is specific to cable size and type and with the crimper's I really think they have the best breaking ratio bad to bad and would a good deal for new comers to snaring or cable restraint uses.
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Post by sinrud on May 18, 2006 15:32:14 GMT -6
"The major difference between aircraft and commercial cable is the lubrication applied to aircraft cable, which provides substantially better fatigue life than non-lubricated commercial cable. Aircraft cable requires extensive extra testing, documentation and certification to meet military specifications."The "thing" is that although snare cable is "called" aircraft cable it does not have the special lubricant and is only classified as such since it is constructed the same. A direct statement from cable manufacturers. Sinrud
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 18, 2006 17:16:39 GMT -6
Agreed but I don't think any trapper really cares if it has some fancy oils in it or not or if it is called air craft, commmerical or whatever as long as it takes a dull finish,won't rust and can hold a nice loop and can be had for around .05-.07 a foot. Some people call them crappie others call them crap ie, some call blue gills others call them bream.
The majority are buying cable from trapping supply dealers and get the commerical grade cable. I care that it is wound right on the spool and is quality material and has a good finish on it. I can tell by when I hit it with my cable cutters good cable cuts clean and lesser cable you get flying end chunks and alot of unravleing. I buy my cable from 2 sources and know I'm getting good cable for the price.
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Post by sinrud on May 18, 2006 19:14:27 GMT -6
WHAT IT IS AND HOW IT'S MADE! Basically we will use 4 terms as follows: 1) WIRE: A single piece of extruded deductible metal such as bailing wire, tie wire, stove pipe wire etc. 2) STRAND: Consisting of a minimum of 2 wires twisted around a single straight center wire. 3) SINGLE STRAND: Consisting of one complete strand described in 2. 4) MULTI STRAND: Consisting of two or more single strands as described in 3. The 1x19 drawing shows a single straight center “wire” with 6 wires twisted around it to form a “center core”. An additional 12 “wires” are then twisted around in the opposite direction to form a complete “SINGLE STRAND” of 1x19. This is called 1-6-12 construction. 7x19 Multi Strand cable uses one of these 1x19 strands as a “center core” with 6 identical strands twisted around it to form a 7x19 Multi Strand Cable. In fact, if you were to unwind the strands of a 7x19 cable you will end up with 7 1x19 strands (of smaller diameter)! 7x7 Multi Strand cable uses a straight center “wire” with 6 “wires” twisted around it for the “center core” (no extra 12 outer wires used). 6 of these identical strands are then twisted around the “center core strand” to form a multi strand cable. The confusion (I think) comes from the fact that the extra 12 outer wires of 1x19 does not make it “multi” in structure. These are two different “Strand Types” called 1-6 Single Strand (for 7x7) and 1-6-12 (for 1x19 and 7x19). Any questions - send me an e-mail. Dick Sinrud Thompson Snares
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Post by sinrud on May 18, 2006 19:21:30 GMT -6
TC, "I can tell by when I hit it with my cable cutters good cable cuts clean and lesser cable you get flying end chunks and alot of unravleing."Unwraveling of cut wire has to do with the wire "LAY" and "DRAW TENSION" of the cable dyes ont how it's put on the reel. You are right - it doesn't matter one bit about fancy oils or whatever in aircraft cable. sinrud
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