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bmp
Nov 19, 2005 18:52:47 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 19, 2005 18:52:47 GMT -6
Of course I can reduce chewing- enough so that the trap passes? Yes.
my methods will work for anyone that tries them. keep this point in mind- THE 1.5 OR ANY OTHER REAL COON TRAP WOULD FAIL AND DID FAIL WITH THE PROTOCAL AS SET UP.
I cannot believe ANY one would sign off on it as ACCEPTABLE.
The proof as always in the pudding- why should I shitcan my decades of coon experience because someone THINKS methods they haven't tried won't work. To back protocal the goes EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES?
Cannopt do it. I've always told it like it is- and I'll continue to do so here.
Keep in mind, these are the same protocals that forbid drowning as a coon dispatch method...LOL
Hey, you can't catch coyotes in weak softcatches either!
Why you blindly accept threaholds that were not designed for coon, that were nothing more than a reach by vets to incorporate a flawed Olsons scale- many believe to indeed outlaw footholds- developed in an entirely different arena- for trapping coon, is beyond me.
Do you think these thresholda were #11 on the stone tablets? They are and were and always will be arbitrary. How can anyone, using the facts of their developement, debate that? You simply cannot.
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bmp
Nov 19, 2005 20:30:43 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 19, 2005 20:30:43 GMT -6
Oh I can, the 1.5 double jaw made the grade why is that? because the added bar makes it harder for the coon to reach the foot with their teeth!!!! A coon guard trap with the welded bar does the same thing!!!! It keeps the coon from having access to the foot!!!! The griz is a solid stake trap and yet how much chewing comes from this device? or the coon cuff? Little to none and why? THEY CAN'T GET TO THE FOOT TO CHEW!!!! The drowing of coons is a seperate issue from the testing of the 1.5 or any other trap, I could catch coons in a#5 bridger on a slide wire and have little to NO chewing, I've done it on beaver sets with the coons being the non target!!! 2 totally different test!!! Plain and simple. I could set the 1.5 reg jaw in a small wooden box and lure the box and catch coons and have zero foot issues as well, but is that testing the tool or the method used only? If it won't perform the way "most" use it then why would you test it in such a manner?
Why you blindly accept threaholds that were not designed for coon, that were nothing more than a reach by vets to incorporate a flawed Olsons scale
By that you mean to loosen them up to accept the chewing of coons correct? Then we will change the thresholds on ALL species and make them species specific and never get any hard true data. You can state this and that but the chewing and what the public percieves of that is what the BMP is trying to achieve, otherwise we could have any trap pass for any species and we would not be one red cent better off in the minds of the public, they would see it as a faulty test, that achieved exactly what the trappers wanted it too!!!!
I have asked you before give me your injury scale if the Olsen scale is so flawed!!!!! It has been the scale of use on any trap testing done for the past 20 years!!!!! The DWRC has used this scale on many trap test! Are they anti trapping? You complain of this injury scale but have nothing to counter it with. The scale was agreed to by both sides tman!!!!! Because it had a history and a history of use by many good scientific test!!!!!
my methods will work for anyone that tries them. keep this point in mind- THE 1.5 OR ANY OTHER REAL COON TRAP WOULD FAIL AND DID FAIL WITH THE PROTOCAL AS SET UP.
Your methods will work but to a passing score and limit the use of the tool!!!! The 1.5 double jaw did not fail!!!! Are you saying that the double jaw 1.5 is not a good coon trap? I see it as a water trap that would work just as well on all 3 primary species, rats,mink and coons. Again what you concider a "real coon trap" is something that can take all species that step onto the pan: dry or wet set and have little to no damage to any species, I'm sorry I don't see that as a one size, one style fitting all needs, for all species by all trappers, and by ALL techniques used!!! The whole point behind the BMP's. Otherwise why have specie testing and just test all species that step on the pan and get caught and add the data and injury as a whole and go from there? What would the results look like for traps then?
Again you miss the point of finding the traps that are best for each speices and knowing that non targets will be caught and that there will be no toe police outhere to write you a citation for catching coons in coyote traps or vica versa.
Yes the testing isn't written in stone, either are many other things, but the people who have been overseeing the testing have agreed in part to go forward to collect data and results,. that have far more proof, than relying on trappers to just say trust me to the general public.
You have 2 sides to this issue and you will never have complete satisfaction, but the middle ground must be acheived as best as possible. The outcome is either we have the ability to continue to trap or we don't , what will best help our situation out? The days of trappers saying just let us be and do our thing are over or comming to an end on a state by state basis, with the HSUS putting more time and $$$ into stopping trappers it is time we have science there to rebute their lies and emotional statements!Aagain polling has shown the public doesn't put high trust in trappers or the anti movement, but the majority put trust in the science end of it all! We have that and the anti's don't!!!
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bmp
Nov 20, 2005 5:11:04 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 20, 2005 5:11:04 GMT -6
middle ground? pooh.
The coon nbmps were flawed from the begining simply because the protocal is stupid.
I cannot say it any plainer than that.
Stupid.
Any data- is flawed and worthless.
duble jaw- please- a bone tossed to people like you that sit back and say "they did everything possible"
Yes- to ensure failure of the trap.Im so tired of being told the bmps tested the best methods, etc...what a crock!
And honestly- I think very little of any coon trapper who signs off on this protocal.
the coon bmps are more worthless than tits on a boar coon-
the coon bmps are what will bring this bmp bandwagon crashing down.
Garabage inm garvage out.]
and please- do not tell me my methods do not work when you haven't even begun to use them once- let along for decades.
Perhaps I should start yelling long and long, in every post I make and every article I write- how the 24 hour check is the only humane way to run traps. In doing so, I'd be as correct as you talking about coon methods you have never used and obviously do not understand.
And thats fine- you aren't a coon trapper and don't want to be one and don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.
Cause if you did, you'd know..
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bmp
Nov 20, 2005 5:15:48 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 20, 2005 5:15:48 GMT -6
PS- what is really stupid- is (not talking drowning here) but you cannot even hold a coon in water and be humane.
Please!
Another example of the idiocy of the coon protocals.
Hello- any of them actually trap coon when the bmp is paying them? Can't see how.
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bmp
Nov 20, 2005 9:52:28 GMT -6
Post by td on Nov 20, 2005 9:52:28 GMT -6
FWIW, I remember reading an article years ago, probably in The Trapper, in which it was determined that coons, or any animal, for that matter, don't drown in "drowning sets", but actually suffocate. I think it said that the animals hold their breath until they pass out and then die. It makes sense to me. I set "drowners" when I can, and I don't recall any coon having water in their lungs. Never seen water in the lungs on the few beaver, mink and rats I catch every year either and they are almost all "drowned". Probably doesn't make a difference. If they think drowning is inhumane, I doubt they would endorse suffocation, but if true, the scientists and people discussing these things should get it right.
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bmp
Nov 20, 2005 12:46:10 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 20, 2005 12:46:10 GMT -6
thats a very good point td. I have a few coon that I hit and hold down to drown in shallow water...and those coon DO have water in their lungs. I can't recall ever cutting u a rat arcass and having water come out. Thats a very good insight!
Back to coon- Heres way- no rhetoric, no bull- I cannot endorse the coon bmps:
1) First and foremost- I simply cannot understand why thresholds should be the exact smae thing for different species HERE- when they are not inaNY other consumptive use are. You don't confine cows like poultry, you don't use the same slaughter methods- you don't cook chicken by throwing live in a pot like crayfish and lobster.
Different? No, its really not. Its as much apples are apples as you are going to get.
Thresholds should be based on specifics-
2) This isn't even taking into account the whole validity of the Olsen scale thresholds to begin with. These thresholds were not developed for trapping- indeed, they are taken from what could failry be the work of anti consumptive use people-- and "made" to fit trapping. Arbitrary and based on no real science- at best.
3) its absolutely silly to say that holding coon in water is not animane. Nuff said o nthat.
4) Protocals- the vast majority (I'll be fair and say a fraction of the data was different) of the tests were set up in non entanglement situations, with little or no concealment cover.
"and those coon all chewed" Well, duh....
There arew methods that can significantly reduce coon chewing. I know this. Many other coon trappers know this. Its methods we practice cause we are selfish- and less chewing means more coon. $$$$
People that know me- peole that talk to me- know I say whats so. I KNOW what methods can do- what location can do- to say it doesn't matter or should not be taken into account- is unacceptable.
And how the life of me anyone can argue methods cannot be included in coon bmps- when they are for damn sure incorporated into the coyote bmps...baffles me.
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bmp
Nov 20, 2005 13:42:24 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 20, 2005 13:42:24 GMT -6
Heres the otherthing I just cannot understand. Why, if the bnorthern coon are so much different- and apparently they are- why not have 2 coon bmps.
A simple declarative statesment such as " The northern tier states in the coon belt of South Dakota, North Dakot, Minnesota, Wisconsin, MI and parts of Nebraska, Iowa, have a unique subspecies of coon. These coon are typically larger and with more fur density and underfur. Due to the increased size and other factors, the suggested coon bmps for southern coons aren't applicable for successfuklly trapping these coon".
and go from there. Too bad a declaritive statement such as "coon chew on numb feet, caused by the paw being below the jaws. A coon, in an attempt to escape the restraint, often chews on these numb digits. This type of injury doesn't apply to the coon bmps due to the non pain nature of the chewing and the fact that close to 100% of these coon are harvested".
btw- before you say "too expensive, we don't need different bmps, etc"- ehy eastern and western couyotes?
seems much more difference in coon behavior by zones than coyotes.
Could it be political pressure fropm western states dnrs caused the split in coyote bmps? seems as good a reason and probably closer to the truth than any other.
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bmp
Nov 21, 2005 15:50:51 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 21, 2005 15:50:51 GMT -6
duble jaw- please- a bone tossed to people like you that sit back and say "they did everything possibleAre you saying the double jaw 1.5 or one with welded coon guards are not a coon trap? That they don't limit chewing? ) First and foremost- I simply cannot understand why thresholds should be the exact smae thing for different species HERE- when they are not inaNY other consumptive use are. You don't confine cows like poultry, you don't use the same slaughter methods- you don't cook chicken by throwing live in a pot like crayfish and lobster.
Different? No, its really not. Its as much apples are apples as you are going to get. Are you serious??? Really? How can you say apples to apples when your dealing with domestic livestock and their carrying capacity in enclosers and trapping are even remotely related? Your dealing with different sized critters and the needs for those animals in captivity, and compairing the same thing!!!! How much room does each species need in a given area!!!! The variable is the size of the species!!!! Not changing the area dimensions, more so how many can be takin care of in x amount of space!!! Your stretching big time on that one!!!! btw- before you say "too expensive, we don't need different bmps, etc"- ehy eastern and western couyotes?
seems much more difference in coon behavior by zones than coyotes. Could it be political pressure fropm western states dnrs caused the split in coyote bmps? seems as good a reason and probably closer to the truth than any other. Very well could be political, because the coyote has been a trouble maker to western producers for long,long time!!!!!! They also relize that the most efficant tool for coyotes 365 days a year, no matter terrain is the foot hold!!! Also had to do with domestics as well, but if you look from west to east not much of a trap change overall!!! If you have the political clout to get a North/South BMP for coons and you get the backing great!!! I'm not against that one bit!!!! What I don't like is some seeing the need to change the testing and injury thresholds to fit their needs!!!! That never changed East/west on the BMP for coyotes they both had the exact same testing protocols and injury scores, just what was tested altered a little from East to West!!!! Because if we allowed the scores to be changed then their would have been an outcry of bogus testing to acheive the desired results!!!!! Too bad a declaritive statement such as "coon chew on numb feet, caused by the paw being below the jaws. A coon, in an attempt to escape the restraint, often chews on these numb digits. This type of injury doesn't apply to the coon bmps due to the non pain nature of the chewing and the fact that close to 100% of these coon are harvested".Do you think the public would buy that or would they see the pictures from the Anti's and say it all makes good sense to me? We had a BMP test and these traps passed even though the chewing is very evident? A field day for the Anti's to declare crappy testing and bogus results in it for the trappers!!!! Why test at all, if your going to allow amputation? The point is then mute, we just write up your statement and then any trap then can be used and be BMP certified. What would the public think of that? How could the anti's use that as added ammo against us? I see it now, dozens of Peta and HSUS billboards with coons missing toes/ feet and your statement underneath and the BMP logo and the verbage, this is endorsed by your state game agencys!!!!! The public is then going were with their trust on the whole trapping issue? I mean really, you could write that up for any species almost!!! The fox in the #3 was attempting to release himself and once the pad went numb he chewed on it, but don't worry as almost 100% of these fox are harvested!!! Endorsed by your state Game Dept!!!! This is setup for the Game depts and the public and to give some guidance to newer trappers, not to appease the veteran trappers!!!! I would find it hard for many people to endorse your disclaimer. It would be like the warning on cigaretts being endorsed by your state health board!!!! These may cause cancer but then again they may not, but 100% of us die at some point so if you must smoke away, Endorsed by the Minn Dept of Health! This isn't even taking into account the whole validity of the Olsen scale thresholds to begin with. These thresholds were not developed for trapping- indeed, they are taken from what could failry be the work of anti consumptive use people-- and "made" to fit trapping. Arbitrary and based on no real science- at best. Are you saying the DWRC/APHIS is anti trapping? Are you saying all their testing and research on traps and dealing with coyotes is bogus? Tell me youre injury scale then please? This scale has a background from vets and a background with the DWRC a leading group of scientist that have done more studies on wildlife than any other I can think of in the last 30 years!!!! Yet you call it a scale based on no science!!!! Tell more how we get a scientific scale to report injury to wildlife that is 100% accurate? Last time I checked the coyote can talk eiother can any other speices!!!! We have a pain scale for humans that is accpeted the 1-10 scale, yet all people perceive different pain thresholds, then why waste the time in the ER or hospitals using it? Because it has a background and has been used in the past for many years!!!!!! Tman, I don't mean to come across as all knowing, but some or your talking points just don't add up at all on this matter?
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bmp
Nov 21, 2005 16:29:19 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 21, 2005 16:29:19 GMT -6
I listed several points- you have not even come close to answering them as asked.
if you continue to think coon are coyotes, as you obviously do- and if you continue to think antriqyated coon mehods are "the eral thing", as yo udo. If yo ucontiune to think thosei n charge of the coon bmpos actually knew whart the frick they were doong- as yo udo- we have no debate-
as I think a coyote is NOT a coon, I think that the protocal was absolutely 180 degrees WRONG, and I continue to think that the methods used were wrong- and to not hold coon in water as not animne- well, thats as anti a statement as I have ever heard.
Me? I wouldn't cross the street for the coon bmp- and I'll continue to speak against it at every turn.
and hamburgers come from hamburglerland...
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bmp
Nov 21, 2005 17:12:31 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 21, 2005 17:12:31 GMT -6
I never stated anything about drowing coons, it could and should be tested as well as snares, but it doesn't change the point that you want different injury scores to best "fit" the situation, that being not equal for all species!!!!!!
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 1:53:10 GMT -6
Post by coyoteman37 on Nov 22, 2005 1:53:10 GMT -6
If coon trappers target the rear foot you dont get chewing. btw too much OGorman infuence? he is a better trapper than you 35. not to mention he probably has done more for trappers to include research in chain length stakes jaw spreads etc.. and modifacation of traps then anybody. who do you think tested the sterling trap? glen is also a student of craigs. I will take his influence over any bmp non trapping desk fools advice any day. for crying out loud.
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 6:39:24 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 22, 2005 6:39:24 GMT -6
37 I'm not going to get into the ogorman thing, I meant by what I wrote, that craig can have his say because he doesn't have near the incidentals with domestics that people out east have as a whole, he would also tell you the days of hanging coyotes on fences even in MT are over due to the "outsiders" moving into that and other states, why public perception!!!!!!
While 3 day checks work out west, it wouldn't fly in many Eastern states even though I get good results from it because I'm setup for it!!!! Again why? Public perception. MY POINT WAS THIS!!!! Our attitudes must change or trapping will be outlawed state by state, fur trapping would cease, trapping nusiance would continue but fur trapping wouldn't again why? Public perception, people see a nusiance animal as one that needs to be dealt with a "rouge" among many, they don't have near the problem with that, so we must educate them on fur trapping and use, and also be aware of their concerns on animal welfare!!! Without informing and having them feel they have a "small" seat at the table then trappers are in for tough years ahead. If fur prices don't improve by a bigger margin and gas prices and steel cost keep going up, in 5-10 years I can tell you the number of trappers in the US will be much smaller, strength in numbers, will be even smaller than today!!! It won't be an advertising shoot out with the anti's that will win, it will be taking the facts to the public and presenting the "truth" about trapping that will save the heritage of trapping, and the Game Depts can be a great ally in that as well!
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 7:16:25 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 22, 2005 7:16:25 GMT -6
attitudes are one thing- no one is against good data and good studires.
But all the perfume in China won't make the coon bmps smell any better.
The Olson scale is great is you want to test coffee....but really has no validity in the real wrold of trapping- esp with the "one size fits all" outlook.
Don't forget- the "trappers" wanted to have this scale fit the animal- the VETS COUNCIL among others did not- and ramrodded this through.
Don't for a sec think these bmps are going to save trapping- consider the source of the data and protocals used.
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 7:48:01 GMT -6
Post by coyoteman37 on Nov 22, 2005 7:48:01 GMT -6
funny I use the same trap for fur trapping,adc work and yes the live market. I wonder how many of the vets or who ever is pushing the bmp actually trap. do they support a family trapping. dont you think they should be the ones with the hands on and in field observations?people who trap full time have a proffesional education in the direct line of work. until every trap is tested fairly in every scenerio every by proffesionals this thing should not be rammed down our throught. food for thought--coyotes are smaller out west than in the east. they have a smaller animal but allow a bigger trap ? when deer season is open you dont run around the woods wearing brown why let dogs and cats roam freely durring trapping season ? as you can see these bmps are divideing trappers the hobby boys need to take heed to the rest of us and stand beside us. you dont a broke down car to a plummer to get it fixed.
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 9:52:15 GMT -6
Post by MChewk on Nov 22, 2005 9:52:15 GMT -6
This post brings back memories of past discussions...guys keep in mind the Olson scale was at one time higher in points....a descision was made to change that...why I don't know. I know it would have helped the coon bmp. 35 in regards to your statement about ANTIS....keep in mind the antis will never be convinced of what we do is acceptable...so why should we care. The publioc needs to look at us as knowledgable PROFESSIONALS who know what / why they are using certain equipment on a certain species. Thats where our traper ed. needs to be inserted
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 15:01:17 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 22, 2005 15:01:17 GMT -6
The Olson scale is great is you want to test coffee....but really has no validity in the real wrold of trapping- esp with the "one size fits all" outlook. It does have validity, it has been used in other trapping test!!!!! Dealing with humane issues!!!! Don't forget- the "trappers" wanted to have this scale fit the animal- the VETS COUNCIL among others did not- and ramrodded this through.Nothing got ramrodded through!!! Do you relize what time,effort and $$ it would take to make species specific humane scales ? Not to mention would they be 100% bullet proof from critics on either side? NO WAY!!!! Just as you bash the Olsen scale, so could any other scale as the species can not speak!!! You keep bashing the Olsen scale yet you have zero,nadda nothing in return to give as a replacement!!!!!! until every trap is tested fairly in every scenerio every by proffesionals this thing should not be rammed down our throughtCoyoteman 37 who is ramming what down your throat? Also what do you mean every trap tested?? Are you telling me that from the list of coyote traps that their is not sufficant choice??? Also who has made any of this law? You can't test every trap their isn't the $$$$ for all traps to be tested for all species!!!! They test the most popular traps that are used by the biggest majority of trappers, nothign wrong with that, the IAFWA does not have unlimited funding on this BMP!!!! food for thought--coyotes are smaller out west than in the east. they have a smaller animal but allow a bigger trap ?No food for thought, the traps are tested and what can pass both the injury thresholds and the capture efficantcy gets added to the recommended list of traps!!!! As far as your fishing on the smaller coyote yet larger trap issue, alot of Eastern states have jaw restrictions in place, LONG before the BMP's ever came to light!!!!! So that won't fly as a stab at the BMP because some of the larger traps were not tested East due to the cost$$$ and no real need with Eastern states not allowing 6" traps for land use. That had nothing to do with the BMP state laws long before the concept of BMP's. when deer season is open you dont run around the woods wearing brown why let dogs and cats roam freely durring trapping season ? Sorry a ridiculous statement 37, you think with the numbers of trappers in the US and the numbers of pet owners and those that own ground be it any size that your going to get a local,state law against pets roaming durring trapping season For months on end? At least you made me laugh today LOL!!!!!! 35 in regards to your statement about ANTIS....keep in mind the antis will never be convinced of what we do is acceptable...so why should we care. The publioc needs to look at us as knowledgable PROFESSIONALS who know what / why they are using certain equipment on a certain species.I know the anti's will never be convinced, but do we need to feed them easy ammunition against us? ? They have the deep pockets and can do harm with massive ad campaigns and the such, do we really need to feed them free sound bites,that are just asking us for trouble??? Like we add a disclaimer like TMan stated, that we are ok with the coon chewing it's foot off because it's numb!!!! We have used the numb part in the past, the rubber band on the finger, the trap on the hand etc, what has it got us? We need to educate the need for trapping while also showing the compassion we have for the critters, this is a must if we want to defend trapping. People if they can see the true need and see that the critters are being restrained in the best ways possible, will not have a problem with trapping, leave out the compassion towards the critters and the rest gets lost in translation to the majority!!! Trappers ED is a great thing for those interested in trapping and truley want to see more of it for themselves, but the public isn't interested in all the in's and outs they want the breif facutal, science backed meat of the matter. Why do we trap, what we are doing for the critters overall, and how can we treat those critters the best, with the equipment we use, those are 3 big points and the only ones the majority cares about.
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 19:54:33 GMT -6
Post by coyoteman37 on Nov 22, 2005 19:54:33 GMT -6
if all traps are not going to be tested fairly then it is not fair to trappers of manufacturers. so the bmps are lopsided. now if the bmp are for the trapper the 6 in jaw spread should be legal in every state because it passed the bmp. well if it passed the bmp then there should be no problem with the incedentals then ? you really cant expect me to believe that a dog caught in a #3 out west will have any more or less dammage for one here in the east. to me 1 dog or 50 durring the season is still a incedental. heres the kicker---- I know the 6 in jaw spread is best for coyotes and so does the govt so why dont the rest of the trappers help us that have this jaw restriction and get it removed or show it in the bmp study after all if we are targeting the same animal the same jaw spread should apply to all. especially if its good enough for thousands of gov trappers before us.
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bmp
Nov 22, 2005 21:08:08 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 22, 2005 21:08:08 GMT -6
coyote man 37 your missing it all!!!! State laws govern what traps are and are not legal!!!! Not a federal mandate on traps, is that what you want? There are reasons states make laws and that is to best suit their situations in there respective state!!!!
Not saying a dog would have more damage west/east it is what the general public will tolerate and how much heat the Game dept/DNR is willing to handle because of all the non target dogs. Now dealing with different breeds and relative to size you can have more/less foot damage according to trap size.
Not all traps need to be tested how many buy use 3 and 4 LS for coyotes anymore? Not many and if a manufacuture would like that trap tested have them contact the powers that be, you must remember the states help pay for the whole BMP process and it's not a never ending money supply, much to be done on a very modest budget for sure. Should we be testing 3 and 4 jumps as a coyote trap? I'll tell you a waste of time the capture efficantcy and damage would not make this a passing trap! The most widely used for each speices gets tested and that is as fair as it gets with the budget at hand!!!!
Goverment trappers before us didn't not have to deal with the animal welfare issues of today, I don't need to deal with most of the animal welfare issues many 1,000's of fur trappers do! It is due to the geographic area I live in and the people I work for All ranch people and ol school line of thought, I don't deal with the younger farmers and the middle class suburbanites that alot of guys have to deal with, I'm lucky in that reguard, you don't find the upper middle class flocking to own a chunk of ground and be surrounded by nature in my area, it is too rough of country for that to happen 2 hrs to the nearest wal mart or fast food 489 people in my town the next closest town of 1,000 is 50 mintues away 2 hrs to 20,000 people.
Many USDA trappers in more populated areas do have to deal with it much more, but it will continue to spread and with groups like HSUS by many millions there seen as legit group and they have the $$$ to have an impact on trapping, we fight with science and facts and compassion, that is there only avenue: compassion and they work it well, they have no science to back them up! We need it not only in the field of wildlife biology, but also in the equipment we use!!!!
Look you all want to bash this BMP and fight it tooth and nail go ahead and when trapping is under more pressure and the political pressure gets to hot for your DNR or game dept they will look at what to do! With all the other factors against fur trapping in this day and age, high trap cost, low fur prices and without young people and good sound rules and regs and a rebound in fur, I don't think many will have to worry about the BMP being the demise of trapping in 15-20 years!
We need the Game depts to back us and become involved and to have the information the BMP's provide on why and what equipment is best suited for each species. I want my 4 kids to be able to trap for fur, it sounds like alot are selfish and just want to look out for their own well being in the hear and now and when I'm dead and gone who cares, I want my cake and eat it too! Sorry but life is about change and adapting, if you can't do either you end up on the extinction list!!!!! I'm done you guys keep carrying the whining and complaining montra on this subject!!!
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bmp
Nov 23, 2005 8:24:33 GMT -6
Post by coyoteman37 on Nov 23, 2005 8:24:33 GMT -6
have the traps you use pass the bmp ? if so than the bmp and state mandate should allow it for me as well. I shot 17 collarless dogs last winter. these dogs had no dammage due to the trap or methods I use. yes we have a leash law and my yotes and reds go a hundred apiece on the live market. so I lost 1700.00 dollars on private property where there are not supposed to be ANY incedentials. so much for the general public sight on keeping the leash law or welfare for the animal. thier animal their responsibility.not my problem but my problem when traps dont pass this lopsidded bmp thing because there wasnt enough money.however you do make a good point so how do you get the dnr to change public opinion these 6 in jaw spread is good for them so why cant the fed govt convince the fed govt its not ok in the east. dog owners need to be responsibile for their animals we as trappers should NOT have to be held accountable for their lack of responsibility. trappers have more restiction then someone on parole. think about it. people buy a dog let it run it goes to the neighbors farm tresspassing as it may running deer etc.. gets caught in a coyote traps who pays -- the trapper he is made to look like the devil just doing what he wants to within the law. we will never please the public so we need to adopt and use the most effecient trap to trap our target then maybe the public will wake up and be responsible for thei pets and not let them wander why that man traps on his property.
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bmp
Nov 23, 2005 8:34:09 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 23, 2005 8:34:09 GMT -6
no 35- you are the one missing it- you cannot give me ANY scientific basis for the Olson scale. Before youy type another word- please address that subject. Show me the scientific proof that the Olson scale has ANY validity in relation to trapping. You CANNOT cause it DOES NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually- you are the one carrying on- blindly accepting what the bmp people tell you- whether its based on fact or reality or not. Who is ramming this down our throats? besides trappers like you? try the bmp committee. THey have a vested interest in making SURE these bmp "recommendations" are adopted by as many states as possible. Why else would the STATES pay the way to have their personal continue to push for and test bmps? If they are adopted- money "well spent"- if tossed by honest trappers- they look like fools. Make no doubt about it- the STATES are not, in 99% of the cases- trappers friends. THe states, in many cases, are the trappers wqorst enemy. And bogus bmps are only going to REDUCE the number of trappers. I personally feel many states would be very happy to eliminate fur trapping and have all work done as ADC work. Let the public pay...
37 brought up a very valid point and you dismiss it out of hand- cause it fits your trapping mode, no other reason- why 2 different bmps for coyotes and nothing else? It only makes logivcal sense that on COON do we need 2 bmps.
POLITICS AND MONEY..and not money from distruction. I'll flat out bet you the farm- that beaver & coon do FAR more damage overall then coyotes do to farmers and ranchers in the United States.
and of course stuff got rammroded through- have you ever read ANY of the true jhistory of the bmps? This all went smooth and NO undue infliuence by the Vets council? Please...thats not even close to reality.
and btw- the BMPs have NOTHING to do with domestic pets- if you are using that as a point to debate- you are playing right into the antis hands.
doesn't matter WHAT trap I use? the bmp committee can deem it "out of use" and ignore it, not test it-----yet in the coon bmps- it not only tested traps that weren't in popular use- it RECOMMENDED them. LOL...not!
bottom line- take the coyote ones as you like- the coon BMPS are worthless, distorted, based on old time protocals- and I personally feel influence was made so the 1.5 would not pass, indeed that ANY real coon trap would pass....why---take your own guess.
To ignore common practices that WQORK...to be so lame to not accept holding coon in water is both ANIMANE (animals aren't human, why use the term humane?) and a good way to ELIMINATE chewing..
Read that again- holding coon in water- ABSOLUTELY ELIMINATES CHEWING. Ain;t that a kick in the ass- a method that works almost 100% of the time, a method used by MOST water trappers of coon, a method that puts (ultimately) more coon on the boards- is deemed not animane by the powerful, all knowing bmp committee...with help from their buddies at the Vets council, of course.
And is not tested.
Heavy cover trapping....not tested.
slide wires in water....not tested.
Entanglement situations....not tested.
Suitable "action" type drags...not tested.
No----lets stake a coon in the wide open, on land, no cover and see what happens...
my oh my....they chew.....!
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bogus study if I ever saw one. Only thing worst is probably the Fur Bearing Biodiversity report I'm anxiously awaiting to read....
You've been fed a bait and swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Too bad-
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