This is what I was afraid of

[trappnman]

1) back to the olson scale- do you have any input?
What animsla were these scales tested on and how.

I did a pretty exhaustive internet search- and found zip.

I hate to add to the conspiracy theroy- but thel ack of anyone givng out any real info on teo lson scale is starting to stand out.


2) larry- protocol in setting standards, or boundarys- IS testing techniques. All the bmp test were tesed using cetain tecjniques. The fact that all, intheroy at least, were using the SAME techniques doesn't change this

3) I didn't ask the question facieously- give it a little more tohught- will a coon constatly in motion- chew?

[Jarhead620]

will a coon constatly in motion- chew?

Well, I can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, LOL. Sorry, I just don't understand how you keep a coon in perpetual motion without following him around with a buggy whip.

My only point is that a standard 1.5 coil will never meet any acceptable injury score on coons. There are many aspects of the BMP's that I expect we would agree on, but on this one we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Larry

[trappnman]

Larry- just bear with me.

if you walked a coon around with a trap on his foot- keeping him moving- would he chew?

no trick question- I just want a simple yes or no answer.....

perhaps you know where I'm going with this...so indulge me....

buggy whip.......so you DO know...

perpetual motin...no....but a few hours...hmmmmn

[Jarhead620]

if you walked a coon around with a trap on his foot- keeping him moving- would he chew?


Damn, Steve, you're a devious and diabolical sort. My answer: not likely, but not impossible for him (or her) to snap at the trapped foot on the move.

Only a guess on my part, but it seems you have in mind hooking him up to a revolving arm so he can pace around in a circle. Kinda like hooking a mule up to a revolving shaft to operate a piece of machinery. No, that would be too complicated. Come on, what's your plan?

Larry

[trappnman]

LOL- Damn, Steve, you're a devious and diabolical sort...... very inventive idea larry- and I think it would work...I really do.... The Kline Umbrella Support...

once you put your mind to that concept...that a coon continually moving would, for all practical purposes..be unable to chew....

you begin to thing of something incorporating that idea..yet be practical and worth dong on a large scale.
so- the goal is to come up with a system that encourages movement- that occupies the coon.

A metal drag hangs up. stopped dead. A wooden branch drag...bends and flexs and gets caught and uncaught. Always allowing movement of the coon. Always allowing the coon to accomplish what he wants- to move away from what is restaining him.

Does a caught coon- upon feeling the trap on his foot- chew? I doubt it. I think his response is to pull away from the trap, to run away from his attacker.

A trap restraining system that allows for free movement and gives a sense of moving away from danger- cuts down chewing. Eliminate it? No. make it a non factor? Yes.

In small stream trapping for example- streams with blowdowns every so often- attaching coon traps to logs 6-8 inches in diameter and 10 or more feet long.....allows that coon to work a large section of creek...fighting the bank...not the trap. chewing on a 24 hour check...almost zilch.

Been there, do that.

Just one example- I got more.

[Jarhead620]

Yeah, I already made an application for a patent on my invention. The trademark name will be "The Coon Carousel."

Larry

[trappnman]

Larry- its no surprise to me that you are "opening the box" here a little, and at least contemplating other thoughts rather than summarily rejecting them. I expected nothing less when you entered the fray.

There ARE other methods that are better. And thats just a plain, simple fact.

fyi- for any going to PA, I'll be giving a coon demo detailing my methods and beliefs.

"coon carousel"..I like it...that is, I like the concept....

because- that concept brings me to another method of reduce chewing and that is Gods "coon carousel"...

and that is using a sapling to give 360 degrees of motion to the trapped coon.

a similar set can be used for beaver in shallow water- pound a pipe into the bottom, and have the trap attached so that the beaver alos has 360 degree movement- around and around the pipe. Prevents beaver twistoffs. Not practical in most situations- but it works quite well. Try it- I've used it several times with success.

Substitute a sapling and a coon- and same principle has the same results. A coon with 360 degree range of movement- chew little if at all.

Seems to me, that for all the biologists and vets involved in this process- none bothered to try to "think" like a coon and to match methods to the coon.

Yes- a trapped coon chews? Why? Thats the key question..WHY?

my answers- 1) to escape whatever is restraining him. A stake set is the absolute worse to ensure chewing does occur 2) vulnerability- being restrained in the open causes a lot of stress- and how is this stress handled? (hint: what do stressed people do to their nails?) 3) boredom. See above.

Take these factors into account- something the bmp process did not do in any way- and you get more chewing than if these factors ARE addressed. a LOT more chewing.

As simple as 1, 2, 3....a,b,c.....

and THATS why I find these coon bmps unacceptable- old school thinking and old school results.

as a separate issue- can anybody tell me of any coon trapper taking more than..lets say 2 coon a year that uses a #11 dj offset trap for them?

if so- I'd like to know.

Kinda debases the arguement of "testing popular methods only". I bring this up- because the stoploss trap wasn't tested because "its not a popular coon trap or in common use" or some such. And the #11 offset is in popular and common use as a coon trap?

[trapperjoemo]

So, how is acceptable injury defined? Is that the Olson scale? I think we all have different ideas/opinions about what is acceptable. And I suppose this has been said before in one way or another, but, unless you plan on releasing a coon, how is a numb paw, chewed or not, considered an injury? Maybe I`m equating injury with pain? In that case, a numb paw wouldn`t have pain would it? If ANY trap holds the paw tight enough to hold the animal consistently, doesn`t that cause the paw to become numb? If that is true, than the BMP complaint is simply the chewing aspect?... on an already numb paw, on an animal that will not be released alive anyway? (in most cases). In Missouri, our season was extended (in hopes of harvesting more coons), so I don`t think anyone here had coon release on their mind. Maybe we need a seperate trap standard for those trappers who are planning to release alive the animals they catch. lol
So maybe this just comes down to a "yucky looking paw" as I heard here before?

[Edge]

Before you run off to the patent office;a top swiveled kill pole is already a pretty good coon carousel.

Edge

PS Very good Larry and Steve.......good posts.

[Hamilton]

Trappnman- please give me the details of your protocol for raccoon trap testing for the infamous 1 1/2 coil spring. Need to know all the details. Thanks!

[trappnman]

I'll be glad to- but the essential parts have been spelled out time and again- part of the secret is entanglement and part of the secret is freedom of movement. Might seem like a contradiciton- but it is not.

But, i'll detail my exact techniques- but don't have the time tonight- will tomorrow morning.

[trappnman]

Dave- just to clarify- by "protocol" do you mean technique (methods)?

[td]

It seems to me that the bigger coon don't chew as bad as the smaller ones, but I have never kept track. Anybody else think this? I am guessing Minnesota coon, on average, run bigger than most coon.
Steve, could that be a factor in your success?

Or....Maybe coon that far north are accustomed to cold,numb feet and are so tough that they don't even notice that little trap on their foot. ;D

[trappnman]

It could be a factor- certainly is in regards to hypothermia- as i have never had a coon die of hypopthermia ever during the fall, winter.

but the same big coon- the jumbo hill coon- chew extensively when staked in the open or on the bank of a creek.

[trappnman]

My techniques...err..protocol are these:


IN WATER

to begin with- I believe that any opinions that argue holding coon in water isn't animane, either in non drowning or drowning situations, are ludicrious at best. I'm an adult in a free society, and I'll follow my own moral beliefs. I'll follow the trapping laws of my state. My mom died 10 years ago and I'm not looking for a replacement.

Shallow Water.

1) In shallow water, you have 2 options
to contain your coon with little or no chewing.

Fasten the trap with minumum links to the stake- so that the coon is unable to get the trap out of the water enough to chew when caught. A lap link to the stake, 1-2 links of chain works well.

And in ALL CASES, stake the trap so that the coon is UNABLE to reach shore.

By doing this- the coon is basically unable to chew at the trap, not because of science or opinion- but through the mechanics of the chewing operation.

Hypothermia- jeepers, I'm killing the coon. After all, thats the end result of coon trapping. I HAVE NEVER HAD A CASE OF HYPOTHERMIA WHEN TRAPPING IN OCTOBER, NOVEMBER, DECEMBER, JANUARY, FEBRUARY OR MARCH HERE IN MN- AND THATS IN TEMPS FAR BELOW FREEZING. So its a non factor for me.

For those that aren't antis and aren't against harvesting coon- hypothermia is a viable option. If I EVER have a coon die from it- bonus.

2) Also in shallow water on smaller creeks- use of moveable wooden drags reduce and/or eliminate chewing. I use floatable small "logs" to fasten the trap to. My streams are small, and have blowdowns or log jams periodically. Choose a set location upstream from these jams.

Choose a drag that is long rather than heavy- you want the coon TO be able to move it. I prefer "logs" 10-12 feet long and 6 or so inches around. Side branches on the drags are ok, but not a requirement. A trapped coon will work both sides of the creek, moving slowly down the creek- hanging up, breaking free, etc. VERY, VERY rarely does a coon take this drag out of the creek.

Deep Water

Take a guess.

OPINION: It is, in my opinion, ridiculus to not endorse holding coon in water or drowning them. There is NO scientific data either way on this- so those saying its not animane- are simply giving their opinion.

Yes- restraining traps- but what is the purpose of restraining a coon? I kill mine.

A foothold that is set up to dispatch the catch via drowning is, at least in my opinion and the laws of Minnesota- the same as using a killing trap-

Next it will not be kosher to actually kill a trapped coon-

ON LAND

My biggest complaint with the coon bmps (leaving out the absurdity of approving a #11 offset trap) is that the protocols as set up by the bmp committees- do everything possible to ENSURE a coon will chew the trap by mandating:

staked traps or immovable traps

non entanglement

My methods fly in the face of this- I do 100% opposite.

I don't stake coon traps per se and I cetainly don't set them without protective cover. To do so- well, you saw the bmp results. No surprises there.

I cannot stress this enough- limited movement, no cover = chewing and biting at the trap.

Because make no mistake- its not just a chewing issue- far from it. As pointed out in another thread- its a whole list of injuries that pass or fail test animals.

I use 3 methods on land. Does it eliminate all chewing/biting? Of course not. Does it reduce chewing and biting enough to allow more actual coon type traps to maybe pass the loaded bmp standards? Yes.

1) Moveable drags. I like this mehod, and use it a lot. In the woods where I trap, its pretty common to find branches laying on the ground. I'll take a leap and assume its common in most parts of the country that have woods. I look for a branch about as big around as my arm, and once again, 10-15 feet long. I'll make my dirthole next to the branch. All my coon sets are with overhead cover. I make no delibrate coon sets in the open with these drags. I prefer a chain 12-15 inches- more and you get problems with wraparounds.

Once again, this type of drag allows the coon to move it-hanging up, breaking free, hanging up. ( I should add for those that don't trap coon in woods- a good coon woods does NOT have a lot of brush on the "floor". Old growth oak, etc woods are best- too much brushy stuff in the woods equals few coon moving through. A good coon woods is very similar to good squirrel habitat) and even when hung up- you have a flexing movement with this setup- unlike staked sets or steel drags.

I have never had a coon go up a tree with this setup.

This method allows 2 things- a coon to move into heavier cover and the illusion of moving away from the danger. Both reduce stress and reducing stress in my opinion reduces biting at the trap and inadvertant foot chewing.

2) Log Sets- These sets are made next to immoveable logs. While there are methods to making the set that reduce flipped traps, pullouts, misses- I won't get nto that now. The main point is this- freedom of movement. As pointed out in a previous hypothetical question- a coon that is moving, doesn't bite at the trap.

I loose wire the trap chain to the log. To do this, I braid 2 pieces of 14 gauge wire together. (I found this 2 piece braid to far out last even 12 gauge single wires and more importantly, to continue to keep the looseness required.)

I then run the braided wire around the log and run the end chain swivel through it. I twist the wire ends together, but rather than tightening it tight to the log- as I do with moveable drags, I leave an inch or so of space between the wire and the log. I either choose a log without branches sticking up, or trim these off. Many of my logs are used year after year. This loose wire allows the coon to move 180 degrees up and over that log. The coon has a sense once again of "moving". I find that with the log there- most of the frustration of being restrianed are taken out on the log, not the trap.
any brush within reach of the coon- bonus and helps the system out. A longer chain here, as long as it deosn't allow the coon to wrap around neighboring trees- is also a bonus.

2) The Sapling Set- A favorite also. Where its new growth woods, I usually have plenty of saplings gowing. Most of these are softwoods and can be used (I'd stay way from hardwood saplings unless you have specific permission). Choose a sapling that is far enough away that a coon cannot wrap around another growing near it. Cut off any branches on the tree to a distance up of 4-5 feet. Most saplings here meet tat criteria without trimming . Once again, loose wire the trap with the braided wire to the tree. By doing this- you give a coon 360 degrees of movement- and he can and does go around and around the tree, up it a bit, back down, etc.

Once again, his attention is diverted and less biting at the trap occurs.

Give a coon free movement, cover and a more secure feeling- biting at the trap decreases.

__________________________________________

I find it consistent that reducing stress reduces biting at the trap. And I find reducing stress seems to come from diverting a coons attention, allowing him at least the illiusion of "escaping", and making him more secure with overhead and concealing cover.

Do theses methods eliminate chewing at the trap? No- but they do a heck of a better job in doing so than the methods tested.

[trappincoyotes39]

I would love to see your technique be added and tested, is it something that may get done Dave? I can't wait to see the results!!!!!

[trappnman]

way not test them yourself?

[Jarhead620]

Maybe we need a seperate trap standard for those trappers who are planning to release alive the animals they catch. lol
So maybe this just comes down to a "yucky looking paw" as I heard here before?



Sorry Joe, but your attitude saying who cares what the trap does to an animal, since we are going to knock them in the head in the morning (or within 72 hours in some States) isn't going to fly with the general public. I guess you are never intending on releasing a non- target either. Is that right? If that's what you think, you ought to just keep it to yourself.

Larry

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I would love too but, 1. I don't have alot of coon in my area.2. Sample size wouldn't be in your ball park, due to my lack of coon.3. Trying to find timber to drag those coon and slow them down in my area is rare, don't find alot of coon out in the sage. 4. I want to see the test scores in the same areas and others, with your techniques, if it gets the 1.5 a passing score great! If not then you must concede it is the traps fault not the trappers, or technique. I'm not saying you don't do better, but do you limit the chewing enough to pass standards? That has been your point all along! If your techniques where tested the 1.5 would pass. I hope for all coon trappers it will be tested and does pass, the only down side is it will be terrian specific on dryland, take North Central Iowa, not alot of woods timber to hang coon up in, plowed fields and grassy sloughs, irrigation cannels and such, many areas like that in Ill,IA and other areas, thats why I'm interested in seeing how my idea of a 1.5 with a coon guard and 1.75 springs on dryland pan out, then not matter where you trap coons dry land, you have something that works anywhere, due to the dynamics of the trap and not the technique used. It would make a heck of a trap for all who suite trap dryland, I'm thinking keeping the coon guard to the outside edge of the jaws, and having the 1.75 springs, to come up a tad quicker through dirt.

[trappnman]

Do any coon trappers in Iowa use footholds for coon except in water? All I know use 220s and snares.

Guess then we'd need an eastern coon bmp and a western.