Eastern Coyote BMP vs. Western Coyote BMP?

[CoonDuke]

What are the differences? Are the thesholds different?

Why do we need two BMPs for basically the same animal?

[trappincoyotes39]

I think they had 2 different coyote BMP's because your dealing with 2 totally different make up's east to west. Human population and doemstic animal populations, also many states out east have jaw restrictions, that wouldn't fit in right out west. I don't see many eastern trappers running #3 bridgers or sterlings or coyote cuffs #33, becuase of pet's, human interaction, and many states having jaw restrictions.
I think alot of western US trapper org's and the NTA and FTA played into this deal
Otherwise there would have been great coyote traps not tested. I'm betting once the new sterling is out it won't be long before it is tested and passes the eastern coyote BMP.
Also the relation to coyote sizes East to west. Plus coyotes being an animal controlled to prevent livestock loss. Out west this causes much more fianacial loss than over east, and the rancher/livestock groups weighed there thoughts as well.

[trappnman]

financial losses? livestock losses?

red herrings

I thought the bmps were for comfort of the animals?

do western coyotes have less nerve endings?

the main question asked- Are the thresholds the same?

I too would like to know.

[love2trap]

I believe the IAFWA made a big mistake when they did the eastern and western coyote BMPs. The reasons they did two seperate ones is mostly political! It is widely known that the eastern coyote is a larger animal, yet the western coyote bmps specify the use of larger traps....hmmm, that makes absolutely no scientific sense. Ultimately, it isn't the job of the bmps to designate the trap sizes that are lawful in each state (or region) that is the job of the state DNR. BMPs should be used to show which traps passed and which ones didn't. IMHO, by adding the political angle to the coyote bmps, they have lost scientific credibility in the process.

Why aren't there eastern and western raccoon bmps and eastern/western bobcat...etc.

trapping location should not have been considered int he bmp only the scientific results found for each trap tested. THAT is the only way to remain apolitical in the process.

Mark

[trappnman]

Why aren't there eastern and western raccoon bmps and eastern/western bobcat...etc.


i agree- esp northern vs southern coon.....

[CoonDuke]

I have no problem with and Eastern and a Western Coyote BMP, but I feel that the same traps should have been tested.

[trappincoyotes39]

If people in the east want to test traps like the sterling, coyote cuff, then by all means make it known. I just don't see many trappers using these traps in the east, many don't becuase of jaw size restrictions, and other restrictions.
You had a western coyote BMP because of the predator control that takes place in most all western states. Political sure? Because those that wanted to have the equipment needed to get the job done made sure to be active in the process. Look at the livestock damage caused in the western US anually by coyotes and you could see there concerns!
thought the bmps were for comfort of the animals? Yes tman thats part of it, but also capture % and being a practical tool for the intended use they all play into the BMP. I will check the thresholds, but I'm assuming that they are the same because of the 24 hr trap check prevision in testing.
Alot of the same traps where tested, you will find a few variables but not many. They lost nothing from doing an East/West Coyote BMP, the scientific data is still the same process for any BMP! Yes the thresholds where the same, because the traps tested this past fall/winter where tested both west and east. These traps including the modified montana's, where tested on coyote and fox, and are an adendum to both the East and West BMP.

[trappnman]

they might be the same but I'd like to see that.

but in any case....are you now saying efficientcy is more important than comfort?

so the bmps are...political....?

At last we agree.

[trappincoyotes39]

They are the same that is a fact! The process is political or you wouldn't have federal funding, doesn't make it wrong or bad, it is the people involved and those that don't want to be involved that keep this fire burning.
Some of the "best" people are involved to ensure the trappers voice is not lost in the shuffle. There are those that want to run down and bad mouth the process, but it is here and we must make the best of it.
Tman, it isn't one or the other, it is the combination of all aspects that a trap passes or fails by. You can't have a great injury score and a capture efficancy of say 35% and have a trap BMP recommended. It all comes into play, it is all weighed and balanced.
I know your PO'd about the coon BMP, but let it go, it is what it is, and if you add 9ga wire to all your 1.5 traps, walla you have the BMP equivlant of a 1.5 double jaw!
Coyote trappers have been all for trap modifcation long before the BMP because of the benifits, why are coon trappers so against trap modification?

[CoonDuke]

TC35,
My big gripe is that the #3 Bridger with full mods is approved in the Eastern Coyote BMP, and I don't think the stock regular jaw and offset jaw were even tested in the east...like they were in the west.

I believe the stock #3s passed in the west...

[trappincoyotes39]

You are correct in that the #3 bridger inside /outside laminated trap passed, why the others weren't tested I don't know, unless again there was some apprihetion to test the others, but remember the inside jaw spread is only 5 1/2", so my thoughts would be this was tested due to the jaw width restrictions in the East? What kind of restrictions do you have in PA? I know Ohio and some other states mandate 5 1/2" or less on land traps.
I can find out, but I'm betting because of the simple lack of use by alot of Eastern trappers to go to #3 traps.

[CoonDuke]

TC,
PA has a 6.5" outside spread restriction. The #3 modified that passed in the east would not be PA legal due to it's outside laminations.

A stock jaw or inside laminated only jaw would be legal here in PA.

[trappnman]

I will check the thresholds, but I'm assuming that they are the same because of the 24 hr trap check prevision in testing.

so now you have checked tham and are 100%? thats fine if you did so.

how aobut someonme posting a link to the actual data- a lot of secrecy seems to me!

tell me- are you under the misconception that I don't understand how the bmps work?

because I question the science, the motives and the results doesn't mean I don't have as good of or better understanding of the concepts as an expert such as yourself does.

It just means I didn't drink the koolaid.

some bmps are legit- some are bogus such as the snaring model that is now the nations #1 model and yes, the coon bmps.

to say that the #11 is a coon trap of choice shows a real lack of understanding as to what trap coon men use. I get real sick of saying its so makes it so.

They need to get in the real world- talk to coon men that actually trap coon.

the #11 (and offset for _____'s sakes) is no more a trap of choice than a 1.75 is the trap of choice for coyotes...

I agree with much of the eastern coyote- but I support no bmp.

I was undecided- that has long passed- I repeat- the bmps will be the downfall of fur trapping.

BMPS = Just Say No!

what are they going to do- take away our fur markets and make our furs next to worthless?

Want to make a bet- I bet with in 5 years- at least 5 states adopt the bmps- just like the rush to adopt the WS snare bmps.

Cheaper, easier then run real tests for each area.

now- according to your own admission- the bmps are political driven- showing what possible accuracy and unbiased results truly are....

[trappincoyotes39]

some are bogus such as the snaring model that is now the nations #1 model and yes, the coon bmps.
I would say wait and see what the future holds on snaring, this issue won't go away quitely, but as Rally Hess said on trapperman, they didn';t test many alternatives at all, but I guess the trappers of Wis are happy? They chose there own route to go, they took what there DNR offered, you have a problem with that call the Wis trappers org.
to say that the #11 is a coon trap of choice shows a real lack of understanding as to what trap coon men use. Where in print did you see this? I saw no BMP paperwork stating that to be the case.
Want to make a bet- I bet with in 5 years- at least 5 states adopt the bmps- just like the rush to adopt the WS snare bmps.
Montana is trying to implament legislation to adopt some or all of the BMP, there also looking at a trap check law, that was there decision, but it will be shot down by the livestock growers and other groups.
To counter that I hear Iowa is looking to do away with 220's being legal for land sets due to the dog issues there last fall/winter, and that has no relation to the BMP! States decide as I have been saying for some time. I will read the Montana bill and see what it trully states. They also want to implament a trappers ed course, which I agree with 100%, it's time all states had mandatory trappers ed, just as all states went with hunters ed, ads more clout to our side, yet there are those that want to bad mouth that idea as well.
according to your own admission- the bmps are political driven, where did I say politicallly driven? I said there where political aspects, yes because of the funding comming from USDA, farming is politically driven, whats the point? Because politics are involved you want to make it as all bad? Trapping is political, has been for the last 35 years or so.
Back to the fact the 1.5 coil with modification passed, you seem to not want to aknowledge that why? You can say no, thats the beauty of America, but I bet this process adds more to trapping and keeps trapping legal in many states in the future.

[trappnman]

Hamilton says the #11 is a major trap of choice.

Is he a good enough source?

Political aspects but not politically driven? Ok... kind of having your cake and eating it too- are you saying the two are mutually exclusive?

The bmps were never about "saving" trapping. The bmps were about appeasement- no matter what spin is now being given to them.

I saw the results of the first coon bmps- test classes of 20-30 coon in several cases.

Wow- that proves...what...someone caught 20 coon- cause it proves NOTHING else.

I find it absolutely ridiculus that you blindly accept the coon bmps- and you not even a serious coon trapper- but won't endorse the snare bmps that are becoming law in several states.

Why? Not enough testing? Not enough qualified data? Why?

They can take the #11 offset and the 1.5 double jaw and stick both where the sun don't shine. Along with every coon specific trap out there.

Why not test a flat rock with a stick proping it up?

I'm really sorry the bmp committee figures most trappers are just too stupid and ignorant to actaully understand techniques make a difference.

"Oh my- can't test techniques don't you know"

IMNSHO- pretty ignorant NOT to....

techniques are the key in ANY trapping success.

you got what you want on your coyote bmps- screw everyone else that tries to make money on trapping?

You HEARD from a coon bmp testor- and his statements that THE OTHER TRAPS WERE MEANT TO FAIL.

The handwriting was on the wall.

I believe the results were predetermined and the tests went to prove those predeterminations.

All the things you say we should bring to the attention of the bmp committees- WAS done so a few years ago- all for naught.

What in heck does the 220s have to do with things? Another red herring that has no bearing on anything.

bottom line- the coon bmps could have done things right- they could have listened to trappers that actually knew what they are doing - but no, lets listen to the vets ands lets test traps so they will fail.

What a waste of time and money- and now they are trying to solve this bogus study down our throats with the platitude "we tried to get the 1.5 to pass" ( read this with appropriate whine)

Bullshit- if they wanted to have the 1.5 pass- proper techniques would have made that possible and that Jack, is a fact.

The coon bmps get no support from me- now, in the future- ever.

Are the test results that much of a secret that no one will publish a link to the test results? Easy to see why- if the results of the bogus science were made public- whatever minor validity the tests would have would disappear.

You allude to having all the test results- publish them or quit referring to them- even going so far as "I'll check that"...no, don't check it- show us.

I'm tired of second hand smoke.....trappnman

[trappnman]

I got an email asking if I thoguht the bmp committees werecorrupt?

Except for the Vets- who yes, were corrupt in my mind in their threshold requirements- no, I do not think that.

i do however think that if the premise was "does the sun rise in the east" and tests were determined to see if this was true... that perhaps the results might be that yes, the sun does rize in the east.... no matter how they tried to get that first light from the west...

Data is not the only way to corrupt a study.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman you test the equipment because not all trappers will use the same techniques, classic example, you get 90% capture efficantcy in 1.75's correct? What did the BMP show? 70%, why? different techniques. Do you want mandations in the form of BMP's to trap choice and techniques? How do you explain this to 12-18 year old kids? I for one don't want a trap to pass if only in manner A or B technique wise.
What kind of paperworknight mare would that be? Hamilton wrote on trapperman read what he wrote under BMP thread!
Tell me who in your mind was out to get the 1.5 reg jaw? The most popular trap for a big% of trappers. Who said this trap has got to go?
You can denounce the process all you want, but the people involved from the trappers, to the NTA and FTA are people looking to do what? Take away your trapping rights?
I think your big hang up is, it didn't turn out your way. I understand that, but we must protect trapping, and if you think the statis quoe was going to do it your wrong in my mind. As far as numbers 20-30 coons doesn't sound like much but do you think there was 1-3 people testing these traps? I would say you can get a baseline from 100+ coons as to capture rate and injury, do you think different?
It is like elcectro shocking fishing streams you don't need to do the whole body of water.certain areas, then fed into a program to give you an overall average. If you want techniques in the mix then I say go for it, but how many fellow trappers would be happy to be told this trap must be used in this manner only? Kind of like the snaring BMP isn't it? Live restraint only, non entanglement, etc.
Are we willing to give up technique and style of indiviual trappers for the sake of having a trap that is passed when modified, with a simple wire welded onto the jaw?
That would be like saying, because of the testing showed, my bridgers #3 are only getting passed with laminations, then by all means to save trapping and have more choices, I'm going to add the lamination.
Otherwise you can hold out and end up giving more than you receive, like the snare deal in Wis, or worse cost a state the right to trap.
The BMP process, will make a big impact to the anti's, and there ability or lack of it, to further denounce trapping. Science andtrappers have proven there claims false. That is a big acheievment, and without funding and testing how many more states would have lost there trapping rights?

[trappnman]

all the bmps have to do with techniques- at least the eastern coyote ones do. read the phamplet and what does it say in the front regarding methods.
Those are techniques.

I read what Hamilton posted- whats your point?

are you saying the FTA and the NTA had any meanful inpit? Where? How? I don't see it. Be specific.

we were locked out of more meetings than we attended.

shocking streams determines average size population- not how many survived the shocking.

Can you provide a link to the actual test results?

Yes or no?

and once again- why are the snare bmps suspect but the coon ones not? Again, be specific.

Listen carefully- I won't say it again to deaf ears- the traps was doomed to failure by the protical and by the thresholds imposed.

let me repeat it again in case you were skimming- the trap was doomed to failure- there was no possible way it could pass. None.

How do I know this? Magic? Nah- experience with coon..

setting this trap without the proper methods will lead to almost 100% chewing. Same is true in #11 by the way.

so "testing" was a sham and the results were as expected.

I can take the same trap- and set it so I get 100% chewing and set it so I get very, very little chewing-

I prefer to think the average trapper (just cause we trap coon doesn't mean we are as dumb as they and you apparently think we are) is smart enough to learn proper staking, setting methods.

To delibrately set in non entanglement situations testing coon traps is...idiotic.

Duh- I trap da coon- I too stupid to undrstand tec-ni-ques...

And since new trappers in most states need education to get lic- simple to teach proper techniques.

I cannot make this any clearer- if you still don't understand- so be it.

[trappnman]

so you think Wis folded do you?

WHY do you think that? thats the point I'm trying to get you to answer- but it seems if you don't like the answer- you refuse to give one.

Why are the snare studies suspect and not the coon?

a simple, simple question-

[trappincoyotes39]

The snare deal in Wis was flawed because they limited the scope of testing to very,very,very few tools and cables and locks, it when in prejudged as a non entagnlement, live catch deal, they never tested snares with the ability to kill!!!!
The trappers wanted to proclaim snaring in there state so bad they folded, period. If I was in there and a memebr or higher up in there ASSC, I would have passed on this deal, it's like stating the only trap they would consider for land trapping is the padded trap-take it or leave it. Without testing any other options, like the BMP's have done and proven!!! I would have fought for more!
The 1.5 was given many chances to pass,it did with some modification! it comes down to the trap design, not techinuques, thats the whole point of modification of traps, to produce better results with a wider base of technique! Thats the whole point behind alot of trap design and manufacturing!
Not everyone in the US has your terrian or cover for coon trapping! I guess since you call the wis a national BMP, then lobby your game dept to test the 1.5 specific to your state and get it passed, there is presadence there for it!
Here is an email from Bryant White read carefully.
We make our initial, yearly, trap testing plans at a technical work
group meeting, usually held in January each year. Our trap testing
technical work group is made up of state agency personnel, who provide
input from a regional perspective. NTA and FTA invited experts are
always present in these discussions, and many of the traps we test are
tested entirely at the suggestion of NTA and FTA. Just a few weeks back
I led a discussion on next years trap testing projects in which Dave
Sollman, Tom Krause, Scott Hartman (NTA) Gary Jepson, and Rod Zullinger
(FTA)all participated. So, I think, the states are very well
represented as are the trapper associations.

The raccoon BMP will recommend the use of the 1.5 coil-spring for
capturing raccoons, but the traps will need to be fitted with
double-jaws. Four of the 1.5 double-jaw designs we tested passed our
criteria, along with 6 other restraining trap types and a whole bunch of
body grippers (160 and 220 types). The raccoon BMP will be out soon,
and I hope that it will be well received.
are you saying the FTA and the NTA had any meanful inpit? Where? How? I don't see it. Be specific. Please rad the above mentioned again and you can see the input.
Ok lets say we up the thresholds for coon then what in the heck does that whole coon bmp prove? That any trap would pass due to higher thresholds, then heck why do one at all? Save the money for other testing, then people Like HSUS can sue and demand a coon bmp and if you don't think they wouldn't demand the same thresholds, you under estimate there thought process, and in the end it would have given trappers a bad wrap for the assumtion of hiding or not being honest and doing the testing in the first place.
Rememeber anyone can sue for any reason, theres would have been for the news worthy part solely to make trappers look bad and ignorant once again, as the ones trying to defend or hide. Good day tman.