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BMPs
Sept 3, 2004 7:58:57 GMT -6
Post by bblwi2 on Sept 3, 2004 7:58:57 GMT -6
We have been using BMPs in Agriculture for culteral anc conservation practices for decades. I support the concept. We have had the luxary however ofdecades of research to estalish the BMPs. For the most part they are voluntary. We do have a BMPs that have become part of regs and rules, such as 590 nutrient management plans etc. They are accepted by politicians, agencies etc. as an appropriate standard and are very helpful when farmers aree raising crops, expanding and or have had spills, or accidents etc. In trapping there are many issues concerning BMPs. Many trap score issues are not the result of the trap but of a host of other variables. Research and well thought out formats can minimize the external. A question I have for those interested is the following. Say trap A and we are looking at WI and its, coon, possum, skunk and grey fox. All being caught in the same traps, all with similar foot and paw size to an extent. Do we measure the trap for damage done to the animal or are we measuring damage the animal does to it's self? If the goal is to prevent self-inflicted damage then a whole new set of variables need measured. I am not as fearful of BMPs becoming the law as many. I have worked in the arena of BMPs for 30 years and they are not nearly as restrictive as many would like one to belleive. They are however a great way to state to non-trapping stakeholders that measures are being taken to be as humane as possible and that is a major win-win. Bryce
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BMPs
Sept 6, 2004 6:43:38 GMT -6
Post by MChewk on Sept 6, 2004 6:43:38 GMT -6
Good insight Bryce.....I hope what you say is what actually happens......as what Coyote35 brings up the ridiculousness of what could occur. Been awful quiet on the BMP front recently weren't they suppose to be done with several more studies by now...lol
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BMPs
Sept 17, 2004 19:28:59 GMT -6
Post by jsevering on Sept 17, 2004 19:28:59 GMT -6
I wont comment on the over all bmp issue being good, bad or indifferent out of respect for men like Dave Hamilton and many good trappers who entered into this thing with actual good faith.
All I will say is look at the offset trigger reg, based in part on a bmp study conducted in north carolina, now being forced down our throats in new york after it was promised it wouldnt be!!!
one of the men backing this rediculous bmp based reg. is Gordon Batcheller, ring a bell, it should hes also one of the biologist for IAFWA (FRTS) and trapping work group.
All I can say is cover your butts and learn about your state regeister, theres no voting if they really want something just slide in regulations......jim
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BMPs
Nov 13, 2004 5:39:57 GMT -6
Post by nib420247 on Nov 13, 2004 5:39:57 GMT -6
I would have no problem if someone tested one of my traps and said it wasent good enough for coon but I have 1.5 duke 3/16 inside jaw lamination, shock springs, and I get my coon as early in the morning as posible with very little, and mostly no chewing, but how can you chew under water :)drowned them if you can...but in canada you can keep a coon in a fox trap so what would they think about my dirt hole in the bank fox set? or my fish oil lure?
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BMPs
Nov 19, 2004 16:10:55 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 19, 2004 16:10:55 GMT -6
Mchewk, the western coyote BMP will be out sooner than later, I guess printing and formulating the text takes some time. Other test are being conducted, and from what I have heard the 11 dj will be the only jawed foothold to pass. Before there are uproars, look at the differance between the spacing under the 11 versus any 1.5 coil, more room to chew. There is no bias for one trap or the other. The coon specifics, passed well because they hinder foot chewing for the most part. Good point on the drowing of the coons. Drown them and you take that out of the equation when water trapping them.
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BMPs
Nov 22, 2004 9:41:17 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 22, 2004 9:41:17 GMT -6
Anybody that says coon chew LESS in a #11 dj has not trapped coon in a #11 dj.
During the otter program- we used #11 djs. 24" of chain- 7 swivel points- all set with ZERO possiblity of entanglement- 90% set in 2-4 inches of water.
The coon chewed almost to a coon- what I consider "bad" say 75%.... over a 3 year period with a ton of coon. Matter of fact, I had several deaths in 11 djs- in fair weather...hows that rate on the BMP chart?
any studies that claim otherwise are bogus and I'd offer anyone every penny I had to come up here and prove me wrong.
The non chewing factor of the #11 dj is nothing but a fallacy.
And if the BMPS come to this conclusion- I'll publically label that part of them bogus and untrue.
in case anyone says that its only our big MN/DK/WS coon that do this- fine- but until I read that disclaimer- I'll continue to try to bust this myth.
I can get less chewing in a properly set up stock Duke 1.5 than 11 djs staked solid... and thats a fact...
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BMPs
Nov 22, 2004 11:22:27 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 22, 2004 11:22:27 GMT -6
Tman deaths from chewing due to fair weather? Do you suppose it was from heat exhaution? Versus chewing and bleeding out? I have many coon and coyotes go down in temps above 60 and no water. The higher the temp the quicker they go down. What was the temps during your study? Also how do you set up a 1.5 stock duke different than say an 11DJ, to get less chewing? The test where conducted I'm sure using same swiveling and chain lengths. For each type tested. Thats the standard procedure. I'm hearing barely passed on the 11dj, not by wide margins over other footholds. Stands to reason the less spacing under the jaw for a coon to get to the foot, the better the foot will look correct? Thats why the species traps ie: grizz,duffers,egg etc, have little foot chewing they can't get to it, to chew. If you have some why of limiting the chewing in a stock 1.5 coil,with more room under the jaws to chew,that greatly reduces chewing bring it up, it may be a tested possibilty. No one stated non chewing in a #11 DJ just less foot injury overall.
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BMPs
Nov 22, 2004 16:21:33 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 22, 2004 16:21:33 GMT -6
Temps in the 40s, checked before 11.
Stands to reason the less spacing under the jaw for a coon to get to the foot, the better the foot will look correct?
No- it really doesn't stand to reason- an enclosed foot is different- the coon puts his toes OUT and he chews AROUND the jaws.
As I stated, chewing was EXACTLY the same in a #11dj on staked traps in the open as in any other trap. Thats just a fact. I won't debate it further.
As far as how do I use my Dukes to get reduced chewing--- I've made no secret of it in my demos and in articles- give a coon something to do- something to take his frustration out on- and he has much reduced chewing and damage. I believe there might be something in Archives or Articles that explains my methods.
I made this known to Dave Hamilton and others severla years ago...but that would be testing trappers.... not traps.
Bottom line- in a styaked trap- the 11 dj is no different and if it does indeed pass and the others don't- something stinks....
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BMPs
Nov 22, 2004 19:52:08 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 22, 2004 19:52:08 GMT -6
Tman 40 out on a 24 hour check and you had coon mortality from chewing? In all my 23 years I have never found a coon dead in any foot trap that "I" could define as mortality from chewing of toes, or blood loss or shock for that matter at that temp. There not testing trappers there testing the equipment, and it all has to be as close to equal as it can be. You pick the location the tech on a random table picks your trap style. Checked every 24 hours, by noon each day. The species are sent to a vet lab and the injury's substained are looked at there. Pan tension has to be a minimum for all traps tested. They try to ensure a non bias outcome, as far as your ideas for foot chewing using the 1.5 coil or any other, it can't be tested as it is nothing mechanical with the trap, and I doubt you or anyone else would want word for word setting procedures to ensure a trap "may"? pass a test right? We will look at the coon BMP and see how it is worded and what trap had what scores, because this is done over a wide area and with many people, and the law of average will show it. No one exspecially the trappers taking part would have a bias for the 11dj over 1.5 coil, I can think of no reason for it. AS far as the same chewing, I can tell you from many years of catching coons in 1.75-sterlings there is a differance in foot chewing due to the added space under the jaws, they have alot more than a few toes missing, I'm sure you have seen this too, I have also snared many coons in thickets with plenty of brush to occupy themselves, but yet the cable closest to them has the most wear and tear more often than not, not all coons are the same as you know, but yes chewing is a problem with coons, just as rings outs are for rats due to there make up, I'm sure if a Muskrat BMP is ever done the stoploss will shine, not because of a bias but because it is a better designed trap for the intended species.
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BMPs
Nov 22, 2004 22:13:15 GMT -6
Post by Toptrapper1 on Nov 22, 2004 22:13:15 GMT -6
I got the preliminary results of the coon BMP a couple of weeks ago. I will find them before going into detail as to what passed and what failed. I do know this, if these results became law, the people who make double jaw add ons for 1.5's will be rich. I beleive the results I have will be the ones going to press not to say more testing will be done as new traps come out.
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BMPs
Nov 23, 2004 7:26:27 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 23, 2004 7:26:27 GMT -6
35- I find many, many times in your posts responding to me- that you just skim over them in your haste to counterdict me. Read what is actually wrtiten- not what you what it to say.
Where did I say the mortality was from CHEWING?
I sais it was in 11 DJ TRAPS.
No more, no less.
No- listen carefully- when a coon chews- its TOES are sticking out of the trap from the side- Unless you have a totally enclosed trap-
the difference on a #11 and a #1.5 is meaningless as far as chewing.
Yes- you take a trap with a 20 inch jaw spread- and space makes a difference- but NOT IN 11 AND 1.5.
To say differently shows a real lack of numbers in either trap.
do you honestly beleive that there is no difference in coon chewing staked out in the open VS given free rein in cover?
If so, it again shows a lack of numbers to draw on.
BTW- if the coon bmps are like the coyote and the previous coon tests- the numbers overall are ridiculusly small- law of averages- in small numerical samples- I don't think so.
Bottom line- and its just a fact, Jack!....you do not get any less chewing in a #11 over a #1.5 coil on out in the real world on the line if both are fastened the same.
Anyone that says it does- hasn't caught enough coon in them to have a valid opinion concerning them. And anyone saying so- telegraphs their inexperience with the traps on coon.
As far as not testing my reduced chewing methods- could care less- I've had many trappers that have seen my demos or read about my methods tell me that it works for them also.
Look at the coon I take- 99% 20 lb+ jumbos- (pics will be posted soon) all in 1.5s set deep in the brush....and except for an occasional toe- not a chewed toe, a caught toe- I have very little chewing. Most of these coon have none.
Compare that to my coyote coons...
I really have to say it- unless you can show me otherwise, based on this post and your post on coon prices- you aren't a coon trapper and just don't have a clue.....trappnman
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BMPs
Nov 23, 2004 9:23:50 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 23, 2004 9:23:50 GMT -6
Tman I will quote your post," "Matter of fact, I had several deaths becasue of the chewing- in fair weather...hows that rate on the BMP chart? Does that not state what you felt the mortality was from chewing? You can berate me all you want, it seems thats what you want to do. You meaning t'man may have lower rates because of where you set and the way you set, but the BMP is not about different setting techniques, it is about the overall performance of the trap being tested, they could be used dry land or in the water, the test is to evaluate the trap not the trapper or his setting techniques as this would be impossible to accomplish a cut and dry method for everyone across the US. Each has different terrian, different locals and other non controlling factors. I was stating a fact about your techniques not being able to be tested, thats it. Quit carrying the chip on your shoulder for me. They can only test a mechanical differnace not personal. Not a slam just a case in point. Setting techniques are to be considered generic, to not show bias in the test, it's the traps performance not the trappers there seeking data for. I would disagree with you that the space between a 1.5 coil with higher arched jaws and that of a 11dj is the same, reguardless how much toes hang out the side, but that is just an honest disagrement no more no less. You can run me down all you want I'm confidant in my abilitys as a trapper and a person with logic and common sense. I guess there is no honest open debating? or exchanging of ideals or thoughts? Good Day
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BMPs
Nov 23, 2004 16:26:35 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 23, 2004 16:26:35 GMT -6
tc35- you are correct- I DID state the deaths were through chewing... I mispoke. My post has been corrected.
the coon DID chew, but the deaths were NOT from the chewing...my point being death was the ultimate no-no in BMP tests....
I stand 100% behind all other statements concerning coon and chewing in #11 vs #1.5 coils.....trappnman
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BMPs
Nov 24, 2004 23:12:27 GMT -6
Post by Toptrapper1 on Nov 24, 2004 23:12:27 GMT -6
As of Sept. 2004 these are the traps that have passed for coon. Keep in mind that the brand is just what we tested the recomendations state or a trap of similar design so don't think that for example brand X passed so they are the only makers of passable traps.
1) Victor No. 1 in Southeastern USA 2) Sleepy Creek 1.5 with double jaws 3) Duke 1.5 with double jaws and laminated 4) Sleepy Creek 1.5 with wide jaw, Offset jaws,and double jaw 5) Sleepy Creek 1.5 with wide jaw offset jaw double jaw and 4 coiled 6) Sleepy Creek No. 11 Double jaw Offset 7)Egg trap 8)Duffer trap 9) Lil Grizz getrz 10) Tomahawk cage 10 x 12 x 32 11) body grippers in the 6x6-8x8.5
Also keep in mind that the traps had varying chain lengths swiveling set ups pan stops ect. I know for a fact we tested the 1.5 traps 3 years with everything from weak springs, pan stops chains from 6 -30 inch and they still could not pass without the double jaws. The final results should soon be going to press and available from from your DNR soon.
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BMPs
Nov 25, 2004 9:05:53 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 25, 2004 9:05:53 GMT -6
Chris didn't the manual state for coon that all chain length be close or the same? Also did they ship you new or used traps to test? The weak spring thing makes it sound like you got leftovers from additional testing in other areas? What part of the U.S. are you from? Did they mandate minimum pan pressures? I know with the coyote/fox BMP all chains are to be the same length and same swivel set ups, pan pressure must be between 2-4 lbs, each trap must be checked by tech before setting. In our area you are shipped new traps. With all the variables you mentioned, that list looks pretty darn good to me, as far as the coon traps one could use , that passed. I like seeing that the benefits of lamination prove with other than just coyotes/fox. The double jaws stands to reason as well less room for coon teeth to get to a part of the foot, and the 1 and 11 having the same jaw width and arch showing again space under the jaws does mean something. The double jaw thing 3 years and you couldn't get them with out the added jaw? Your thought being the added jaw again keeps coon teeth from a larger part of the foot? Which in turn the more of the numbed part missing results in a injury score that just don't meet standards? I can't see where a coon trapper couldn't make a choice with the ones that have passed. I also find the 4 coiled sleepy creek passed with the wide jaws, as another good thing, as alot would lay claim to that type of setup being a foot amputee, which again shows wider jaws dispearse the spring energy in a more efficant manner. With better holds. Again I will state no one has made any BMP into a law as of yet, just adding another nail into the coffin of PETA and the likes. Anyone notice they have been lower key on trapping and now there big push is sport fishing? WE as a group and the likes of the NTA and state assc are moving in the right direction, as you put up factual information and fight hard, you hit them where it hurts them most, there pocket book. I'm waiting on a reply from Sam Trusso on a few questions on this BMP and the western coyote one as well. Thanks for this posting Chris.
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BMPs
Nov 25, 2004 11:32:05 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 25, 2004 11:32:05 GMT -6
As I said before, anyone who thinks a #11 dj prevents chewing- hasn't trapped enough coon in them to form a real opinion. The small 1/4 inch or so) extra jaw means NOTHING.
quit reading books and trap some coon!
Thats a fact from someone who has.
And very honestly- I have little stock in the coon bmps- I am guessing it took a lot to make several of these traps pass- and just as little to make others fail.
sure like to see some injury scores. so 55 is the threashold? 54 passes 56 fails?
Also- anyone who thinks a double jaw is a better OVERALL coon trap on land- again, hasn't taken enough coon in them vs single jawed traps to know.
and in water, who cares.
btw- taken tons of coon in #1- same chewing there in similarly secured traps. So they passed and a 1.5 didn't?
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BMPs
Nov 25, 2004 11:36:45 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Nov 25, 2004 11:36:45 GMT -6
can't see where a coon trapper couldn't make a choice with the ones that have passed.
that sure sounds like an anti statement to me.
hey- lets all use 1 kind of shotgun also...
the #1 production coon traps FOR A REASON- are not on the list. If 1.5 are made illegal for trapping coon, as Dave Hamilton told me...I'll be trapping a lot of fox.
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BMPs
Nov 25, 2004 11:39:44 GMT -6
Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 25, 2004 11:39:44 GMT -6
topic closed....
when someone gets the injury scores, etc- post them on a different thread.
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