Year of Change

[Deleted]

I'm making several changes this year toward coyote trapping.  One I've already discussed on here and that is to adjust my set "type".   

The other notable change is that I'm using waxed sand and dirt this year instead of peat.  For many years I've been using peat from day-1 covered over with ground duff and have never had a problem with freezing unless a step-down filled up and then froze but I've also always had a doubt in the back of my mind that maybe the peat could have a disagreeable smell.  

I've actually enjoyed putting up 2-31 gal cans of sand and 2 of dirt using solar so I'll start right off using it.  I can see that it's going to take an adjustment to my set making since the waxed soil allows water to sit on top of it whereas peat allows water to drain through.I went so far as to simulate rain on trap covering and freeze-tested my waxed dirt and the sand multiple times just to see what I can expect.  If anyone disbelieves peat with duff swept over it doesn't work in wet-then freeze conditions I'll post a couple video links again that very much show that it most certainly does work. 

I'm also making a change with a decent chunk of my trapping properties.  I'm dropping the properties that have shown marginal catches over several consecutive years and extending my primary line miles into territory I've never trapped.  Though I'll be traveling further, I'll have fewer stops with these new properties either in the big woods or immediately adjacent to it.  The property owners have told me there are and have been no trappers and very few dog hunters because of the big woods being so close. 

I also went back and checked years of my coyote NAFA grades to see if I could ascertain and corrolate when "early" grades swung to "prime" and when "prime" went to "over-prime" and the number of "prime" compared to "over-prime".  Those finding will have a bearing on when I start and stop this year for sure.

[cameron1976]

That property "scrub" is a good idea. Why bother maintaining permission and setting up places that don't produce?

[trappnman]

your words sound eerily familiar Seldom.

I remember years ago, arguing this with a some on that if you are driving by a location, where you might catch a coyote, why not set traps?

I read once about coon trapping, that one of the hardest things to do, was to drive by a spot that gave you 1-2 coons.

and it took me 2 years, to commit to doing just that, and to believe that you were indeed better served by driving further, to gain higher %.

the thing about traps in the ground, is that 100+ traps, set up properly (meaning on good locations, and not just setting traps to set traps)is one thing in sunny dry periods, quite another in wet, freeze, mud conditions.

so that is one main advantage to setting up fewer locations- fewer traps catch more coyotes.

one thing 1080 said to me that still rolls around in my head "Man, empty traps are killing you!"

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one odd thing- here, the big woods are where the dog hunters hunt. Do your local hunters use hounds (here they do) or sight hounds? they post standers and send in the hounds.

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You mention you are going to change set types- did I miss that, or did you just mention it in passing? Be curious to what, and why?

when prime and not- yes, been thinking on same lines. My problem is that my lines are so woven into the deer seasons, winter field work, etc that its going to be hard to rearrange things to cover what I want to cover, by starting later. I think the last week in Oct is the turning point, with belly hair getting thicker, and manes becoming fuller. So if I started 10 days later.....but keep thinking of the foot of snow that stayed nov 5th 2 years ago...and that scares me. The stopping point is about the 1st of the year fur wise when they start breaking down.

pretty much set in our ways and methods- the only thing we are changing this year, is going to wolf fang anchors

[Deleted]

one odd thing- here, the big woods are where the dog hunters hunt. Do your local hunters use hounds (here they do) or sight hounds? they post standers and send in the hounds.

Here, except in the big woods, everything is in mile sections.  So what there is will be maybe a 2-20 acre woodlot or swale out in the middle of plowed crop fields so the houndsmen just cruise the roads util they find a track crossing the road.  Then circle the section to make sure the coyote didn't go through.  If it didn't they just either turn the dogs loose on the entering track or if without hounds, one guy will walk the track and jump the coyote.  In our "big woods" there is no way they can cut the coyote off because of the roadlessness so the houndsmen stay away from the woods and the expressways.  The houndsmen start with the 1st snow AFTER our firearm deer season.

You mention you are going to change set types- did I miss that, or did you just mention it in passing? Be curious to what, and why?

Over the years I keep studying the "WHY" of the walk-thru set and the dirt hole sets, specifically the deep, step-down dirt hole I've been using off and on and relating them to my old fox dirt hole set that was an absolute killer.  As you stated previously that you were getting closer to that "X" set , well so do I.  I copied 1080's statement back years ago because it struck me that it really was a formula to the building of the "X" set.  It became obvious to me several years ago the the equilateral triangle layout of the walk-thru was not the end-all answer but it showed me where a real improvement can be made.  Hey, I'm human just like everybody else so I can be guilty of looking instead of seeing.  That's really tough for me to admit because I am literally a "trained observer" by profession and still can miss things and wonder why I missed it.

I've proven that a simple hole in the ground is nothing more then a holder of applied scent and coyotes will approach the hole without any hesitation whatsoever so I would call that by itself the "X".  The question then is what can be done using that same simple hole to catch every coyote that approaches it and maintain the same "without any hesitation" approach?

when prime and not- yes, been thinking on same lines. My problem is that my lines are so woven into the deer seasons, winter field work, etc that its going to be hard to rearrange things to cover what I want to cover, by starting later. I think the last week in Oct is the turning point, with belly hair getting thicker, and manes becoming fuller. So if I started 10 days later.....but keep thinking of the foot of snow that stayed nov 5th 2 years ago...and that scares me. The stopping point is about the 1st of the year fur wise when they start breaking down. 

I went back to the year that a property owner was paying me bounty and wanted me to start trapping 10/15 which is our opener.  Those coyote caught that 1st week all graded "early" and almost averaged BW's much heralded $2 IN coyotes.  Once I got into the last week of Oct all coyote graded "prime" which was by me starting 11/1 I was sure of "prime" coyotes.  This wasn't just one year, I've trapped early for bounty before and the same thing was there.  I use to ship twice a season to NAFA and by doing that I had a better view of when my coyote fell off to "over prime".

[cameron1976]

Interesting thoughts on the peat moss trap covering. How convinced are you that it gives off an undesirable smell to canines?

[Deleted]

I'm not but being who I am, I want to try the waxed dirt & sand and find out, more or less educating myself so I can know when folks discuss it what the deal really is.  I'm not too happy about going back to pan covers after all these years of not needing them with the peat.  I can see where it might be advantagous to some degree to use both.  The peat inside the jaws in place of a pan cover and waxed dirt/sand under and over the trap as Locklear says he does.  It's easier I think , to carry around pan covers then another container of peat.  You can bet I'll have an educated opinion (more or less) after this season.

[trappnman]

I'm 100% convinced that the smell does indeed put off some coyotes IF its just used in the trap bed.

I'm also 100% convinced that if you broadcast peat over and beyond the set (a few handfuls) that that problem is eliminated.

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was talking to a guy this weekend at the UP, never trapped a coyote, but tried with dirtholes, and was convinced that dirtholes just did not work in his area, and wanted a video that showed other sets besides mainly dirtholes. When my answer was that it wasn't dirtholes per se they weren't working- it was the type of dirthole presented. He left not convinced.

[northof50]

Every year is different in the priming of coyotes, our westerns are not 1 till early December
They have actually moved our season back 2 weeks for the better prices this year
Does your peat moss containers have that little pin hole cover in the handles? the 60 litre Tupperware tubs
Could be a acess point of odor come into the peat moss in the off season

[trappnman]

stored in the bag until use, then white tubs in the truck.

was talking to a guy from one of the big auctions about coyotes- stating I was wondering if I should start later. I told him my average, and the lowest I got for a pelt last year- and his advice?

start the same as last year.

he also thought mink could be on a small ^ pattern

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2016 19:07:26 GMT -6 northof50 said:

Every year is different in the priming of coyotes, our westerns are not 1 till early December
They have actually moved our season back 2 weeks for the better prices this year
Does your peat moss containers have that little pin hole cover in the handles? the 60 litre Tupperware tubs
Could be a acess point of odor come into the peat moss in the off season

I have been using peat for many years with the 1st trap set every year and absolutely do not believe in my peat being scent contaminated!  I thought long and hard before answering with this reply, I cannot remember the last time I;v had a coyote scratch at a covered trap!  Seriously, I can't remember when I had one, I probably did at some time but I can't recall it.  No, I haven't tried Steve's broadcasting of peat but I'm also catching doubles and triples with peat the way I use it.  

I'm using waxed dirt and waxed sand this year because I want to see what all the hubbub is al about.  I'm not trying it because I have freezing problems so the only other reason would be to see if my catch goes up and that'd probably be related to scent issues.Last year I found a bale of peat that was very fine, which is how I like it so I went back and bought 4 more bales and they're stored as is.  Might use them sometime, might not if I find the waxed soil better.  I went back in my records and found I make an average of around 100 "in-ground" sets a year including remakes so I'm just a little guy but all of those sets never stopped working with peat.

There is so much bullshit on these forums anymore that commonsense has taken a backseat.  Everybody (just a term expressing "a lot of"), including experienced trappers, saying their way of setting is the best way or their scent is the best scent.  They talk about oh my god-peat freezing.  They talk about not sweeping a light covering of duff over peat and that once wet and freezing, coyotes can't break through.  In-context and commonsense applications are thrown out the window.  Some of these people seem to have to be sucking-off the person on top is all I can figure!  I can show anyone with a couple of my videos that under hard freezing/frozen conditions and the duff-covered peat works great.  

For the very reasons and attitudes I've just descrbed is WHY I want to try waxed dirt and sand this year.  I can't give an opinion on it if I haven't experienced using it.  I did the same thing with Jake traps.  Hell, I have 10 dozen of the most beautifully working, super-modified #3 Bridgers and #4 Dukes BUT I wanted to see what the deal was about the " Cadilac of traps" so I bought 7 dozen.  NOW, if someone wants to talk about Jakes, I've got an experienced opinion!

[Deleted]

Here's a video from Ohio that I found a couple of days ago on Utube and see how this guy uses peat!  If OH is anything like IN with their coyote population it could explain the catches.  Don't know, just speculating that maybe for every one he catches, traps only hold one at a time, maybe 3 were scared-off due to the peat in order to catch one.  


youtu.be/AFsI3hXocvg

[trappnman]

if I cover my peat with enough duff to hide it all, I DO have trouble with that top layer freezing (rainy days and cold at night). Consistently. I might be doing something wrong, but hard to see how. If however I leave the peat showing in a mottled effect, so half dirt/half peat- problem goes away.

it is odd on how experiences vary. I couldn't find the peat part of the video- but if its just in the bed- well, if it works, so be it. it does NOT work for me. and that doesn't mean I don't catch coyotes, just that my visible sign shows less success % using it that way.

[Deleted]

I was pointing out that all he uses is peat with some grass over.

If you're covering after a rain is freezing to such a degree that a coyote can't break through, you are using too much cover.  My sets every year take any where from a 1/2" to 1.5" of rain and freeze withn 24 hours and will still work properly covered with a thin coating of swept-up duff.  My covering of duff is nothing more then a thin veneer to hide the peat's color.  Maybe is the terminalogy I'm using pertaining to "duff".  Duff to me is any top soil, dust, weed & grass leaves, that are loose and light enough to be moved with my wiskbroom.  Heck, if the ground is already froze, I'll swipe the surface of the frozen soil because thare is always a tiny thin layer that is "dry" frozen.  Anything to put a thin film over the peat.

[Deleted]

Maybe there needs to be an explanation here about the peat itself and that all peat isn't the same.  The less organic particulate such as sticks and shredded organics in the peat the less chance that water will be absorbed.  My peat is screen through 1/4" and then a 2nd time through 1/8 screen making if very much free of water absorption particulate.  It's like using flour to bed and cover my traps with so the only thing that will absorb water is the 1/16"+/- duff I sweep over it, the rest of the water drains right on through leaving the peat dry and the trap firing when the coyote or fox steps through the duff crust.

**This was an afterthought**-
You put a 1/4" of dirt or more over peat or I'd bet waxed dirt and you'd be screwed.  All you want is a crust thin enough for the coyote to break through and when that happens, the trap will break upward.  Maybe, folks are hurrying too fast and not paying enough attention to detail.  If something is bad, anything pertaining is bad and that's not correct in my opinion.

Watch this video and though it's only 2-dimensional, listen to my foot steps, notice the dirt is on top of the icy snow.  This set was made in damp sand with peat and a damp sand swept over the peat.  That afternoon I get 3" of wet snow that turned icy and turned to frozen snow before the coyote was caught.  According to the nay-sayers, I couldn't catch it because my trap covering which was damp sand to begin with was frozen and it's obviously untrue with my sets.
youtu.be/fgSS2tq0nDU

[Deleted]

I went back in the pm's off another forum and found where I'd challenged two experienced trappers when they both made the statement on the forum that anyone using peat and covering with duff or chaff cannot catch coyotes because the set will freeze solid after being wet.  One of them admitted he'd only "heard" about it but had never used peat.  Another listening to "those who say it to the greatest magnitude)!! The other had used peat and had a bad time with sets freezing when adding anything over the peat.  I ask him how thick and he wouldn't answer my question.  I ask both how did they reconcile me catching coyotes without remaking every set because of them supposedly being froze to such a degree that the coyotes couldn't break through?  More of less told me I didn't understand the scope of bedding traps in peat and that I MUST HAVE HAD FROZEN traps.  Pretty much called me a liar and a dummy so I added being an A-hole to his thoughts of me!

[primitiveman]

Great video....snow definitely helps solves the puzzle doesn't it. You hit the nail on the head earlier when you said there's a lot of BS on forums to sift through...so often others repeated what they've read/heard from others.

[trappnman]

Well, I'm one that has NEVER gone along with the crowd, or whats "popular"- which is why I've always said " just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done". And its the reason I'll 'debate" things, because my beliefs are cast in doing.


the amount of duff I am talking about, is just what is needed to completely cover the peat, so that none is showing

so thin it barely covers the peat-

and if it rains, or mists enough- it is froze solid.

so how much- between an 1/8 and 1/4 is what it takes to completely cover the peat.

and when I did try to cover it, it wasn't "put this amount on" is was "how little can I put on, and still cover the peat"?

snow over a set, changes everything insofar as how it freezes- many time have crusted snow, and wet dirt below

as far as water proofing, I had last year sets under water for 2-4 days- and in center around trap, bone dry

[primitiveman]

"just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done" - Amen to that

Myself, I have never used peat, so I can't speak to it...interesting to hear others' opinions on it though.

[Wright Brothers]

Seldom, Am I A hole #1 or #2?

lmAho lol
So deang bored with this broken hand I've spent WAY too much time on the int trappers. Good thing I stink at typing beta fingered because I'd have em all mad at me.

Tman, got zucchini out the wazzoo over here, How many you want? haha.

I thought a lot of things I could add to this, but then,
I catch myself turning into what I don't like.

Have a good day folks.

[trappnman]

you remembered about the zucchini!

post away- I'd be interested in your thoughts