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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 8, 2012 9:01:38 GMT -6
Ok you do this test.
Take a brand new trap out of the box degrease It and then put It In a cold dye bath or a hot bath and let It sit for 3 days take It out wash It off In clear water and tell me how much the dye has penetrate the metal. I already know the answer.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 8, 2012 9:33:49 GMT -6
you do? who told you? because sure as I'm sitting on this computer, you haven't tested any of what you stated.
you want a test? take some new traps and drop them in a tamarack bog for a week- then tell me how much of the "dye" washes off.
the amount of penetration depends on the strength and duration of the acids- pretty easy information to access if one cares enough on whether "it must be" really is. because lets be clear- trappers dye isn't magic, it isn't being created by some guy in a coonskin hat in his fur shed-
whats in true logwood dye, or walnut hulls, sumac, etc
Haematoxylin, hematoxylin, Natural Black 1, or C.I. 75290 is extracted from the heartwood of the logwood tree.[1] When oxidized it forms haematein, a compound that forms strongly coloured complexes with certain metal ions, the most notable ones being Fe(III) and Al(III) salts. Metal-haematein complexes are used to stain cell nuclei prior to examination under a microscope. Structures that stain with iron- or aluminium-haematein are often called basophilic, even though the mechanism of the staining is different from that of staining with basic dyes.
Haematoxylin and eosin stain is one of the most commonly used stains in histology. It is a permanent stain as opposed to temporary stains (e.g. iodine solution in KI).
Another common stain is phosphotungstic acid haematoxylin, a mix of haematoxylin with phosphotungstic acid.
In 1970s, due to clear felling of forests in Brazil and Central America, there was a shortage of logwood and therefore of haematoxylin. Its price went to record heights, which affected the cost of diagnostic histopathology, and prompted a search for alternative nuclear stains. Before the use of any alternatives became firmly established, haematoxylin returned to the market, though at a higher price, and resumed its place in histopathology. There were several dyes recommended as replacements: celestine blue B (CI 51050), gallocyanin (CI 51030), gallein (CI 45445) and solochrome cyanin (CI 43820). All four used Fe(III) as the mordant. Another alternative is the red dye brazilin, which differs from haematoxylin by only one hydroxyl group.
rusty traps, have more iron oxide particles, which forms a stronger COLOR
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 8, 2012 11:31:27 GMT -6
you do? who told you? because sure as I'm sitting on this computer, you haven't tested any of what you stated.
Now your telling me what I have and have not done. I gave you a test to preform go out and do It and prove me wrong. Like I said I all ready know the answer.
All total BS
Log wood dye or It's substitute aren't the same as a tamarack bog. Most of us don't have tamarack bogs at our disposal.
No where In your cut and paste info does it say anything about the dye having any metal protecting qualities. It's just a STAIN according to your Info
In fact I just went out and dug out 2 bags of RED LOG WOOD DYE (fake log wood dye) no where on the bag does It state what chemical properties make up this dye. So your research means absolutely nothing since we really don't know what properties make up that dye.
Keep on looking. But unless you want to go out and hire a chemical engineer your so called research Is falling on deaf ears
and means squat.
Have a good day
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Oct 8, 2012 16:05:29 GMT -6
The red dye is not the same as others out there for sure. Black dye I like and walnut hulls even better they have I'm betting a higher tannic acid/Iodine content than the red powder dye.
Dying of traps does help but to what degree is debateable no doubt. I like to dye traps if set up for such doesn't take that long and also now I'm back in walnut country that is what I use and will continue to do as it cost me nothing to collect walnuts.
Plus I get some good eating on the other end LOL.......
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Post by Zagman on Oct 8, 2012 17:08:46 GMT -6
I am in agreement with people in a couple of different camps....
I boil my traps, so like Tman, why not throw in a few bags of dye?
I like the look and smells of going through the process, and the finished product sure "snaps".
Something I like about a dark black trap that I'm not sure I've heard others mention (maybe ever?) has to do with running the line, speed, etc.
A dark black trap really stands out when snapped off in the bed from a distance. Especially a big trap like a Jake or #3 Bridger. On my lines, driving to every set, lets face it....pull into a field, see nothing bouncing, turn around and leave.
That dark black color just pops and looks unnatural at a glance.....and I know I now have to remake the set after I determine why its snapped off in the first place (driven over, rolled on, coon/skunk chew out, red fox ripped out of trap from coyotes, etc.)
Its an aid only, not a game changer nor a reason to dye in the first place, just something I've become accustomed to and look for............
Like Beav, I don't think the dye actually penetrates the steel but rather just colors the rust on the outside.
I agree and disagree with everyone........I am the Mitt of trap dyeing!
MZ
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Post by rionueces on Oct 8, 2012 18:08:18 GMT -6
I know this has been answered before, but what is the best way to remove Formula One from traps? I am starting to notice more dig outs,and I need to go back to wax. T-Man's post confirms my suspicions....
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Post by CoyoteMan50 on Oct 8, 2012 18:35:20 GMT -6
minrel spirits is the best that i have found to remove dip, and its chep at your hardware store,
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 8, 2012 18:55:21 GMT -6
F1 Is bad stuff
I tested It when It first came out. It starts to rust under the coating from day one.
Since F1 Is a latex based coating I'm not sure that mineral spirits will remove It. But some type of paint stripper should work.
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 8, 2012 18:58:36 GMT -6
MZ
powder coat your traps you will like It and a black shinny powder coated trap will shine like a &&&&&&& %%%% at 200 yards.
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Post by seldom on Oct 8, 2012 19:12:43 GMT -6
I know this has been answered before, but what is the best way to remove Formula One from traps? I am starting to notice more dig outs,and I need to go back to wax. T-Man's post confirms my suspicions.... I gave a bunch of #1.5s a good soak in 50/50 vinegar/water and the solution seemed to work it's way between rusted areas very well and loosen the membrane to the point you could just rub a lot off. I used my power washer and it did a good job stripping the F-1 off. Before:  After:  |
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Post by CoyoteMan50 on Oct 8, 2012 20:34:51 GMT -6
hey Beav, just what for unovrste are you a proffser at anyway  or maybe your a rocket sientes  I'm telling the man what work for me, and worked very well.  |
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 8, 2012 21:45:23 GMT -6
Did you try It on F1?
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Post by bogio on Oct 8, 2012 21:52:18 GMT -6
Hey Seldom!
Is there no end to the neat gadgets? Hotdam man, I'm going to have one of those holders next year for cleanup!
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Post by trappnman on Oct 9, 2012 6:48:10 GMT -6
the same acids/chemicals in REAL logwood, black walnut hulls etc are the same as tamarack bogs.
look it up
and oyu will NOT wash off black wlanut hulls, traps blacked becasue of whats in the water (swamps and bogs)-
so- if you cannot wash it off- then its providing protection.
yes or no?
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 9, 2012 7:53:30 GMT -6
We were talking about commercial trap dye NOT WALL NUT hulls or tamarack bogs It's not the same thing and you know It.
In fact until you analyze the chemical properties of a tamarack bog and that of wall nut hulls you cant's say they have the same chemical properties as log wood dye. In fact your own research tells us they don't make REAL log wood dye anymore. So the jury Is still out.
In fact I can submerge my traps In the Madison Metropolitan sewer ditch and the chemicals In that water will clean a trap and also blacken It. The water also suports fish.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 9, 2012 8:45:16 GMT -6
beav- I know a man that uses black crystal dye, boils them in that dye (a heavy concentration) for at least an hour- and he states they are black as coal and last all season.
the chemicals in logwood dye made from real logwood are the same as the bogs
I don't know what its made off today- or if the black are "real" or not- but whatever it is, it STILL must have the same chemical properties to react with the FE atoms of the trap.
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 9, 2012 10:50:22 GMT -6
OK but that's still hearsay.
I still stand by my opinion that dye has little or no protective qualities.
I can remember back when I dyed traps. I would boil the trap In some type of cleaning agent. Then I would run out the contaminated solution before removing the traps. Adding dye to your boiling contaminated water would make no sense at all. I would then rinse off the traps.
In another barrel (used just for dying traps) I would add water then set It to boil. Once the water was boiling I would stir In my dye. I then added my traps I would boil them In the dye solution for about 5 hours . I would shut down the heat and leave the traps submerged over night. Next morning I would start the fire and heat for another 2 hours. Then I would remove the hot traps and hang to dry. GUESS what as soon as those nicely hot dyed traps cooled and dried they started to rust. It wasn't a total rust but there were spots here and there on the traps. So If that's protection I'm Hogans goat
I haven't dyed a trap In 15 years.
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Post by seldom on Oct 9, 2012 13:00:18 GMT -6
If whatever you use to "dye" your traps contains tanins, studies have shown that tanins do convert the existing rust to an stable chemical compound and create a rust inhibitor. benthamscience.com/mats/samples/mats1-3/0006MATS.pdfThe tannin is the heart of a rust converter. It reacts with the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable blue/black corrosion product. Tannins are a group of water- and alcohol-soluble natural products extracted from a variety of plants. Little is known about their true structure as they are complex and variable. Industrial research in the effectiveness of tannin solutions as rust primers began in the 1950s. Since then, tannic acid (a tannin) has become a standard conservation treatment for corroded iron artifacts found on archeological sites. I remove the wax from the end of the dog and the pan notch by burning it off with a 000 tip. Though I've heated those parts to burn off the wax, the "dye" stays and those same parts do not rust while inservice or out! I use the black crystals and I don't give a rats-arse what tree, nut, or frigin weed it was made from but it appears to do what tannin is suppose to. Nobody has to use any dye or coating or use whatever they want, makes absolutely no difference to me but it is a proven, scientific fact that tannins prevent rusting to a degree that they(tannins) are used in the manufacture of commercial rust preventers! Enough said!!!! _________________________ "A few want to know WHY, the majority appear to be satisfied just knowing HOW!" |
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 9, 2012 15:04:34 GMT -6
To what DEGREE of PROTECTION Is the bottom line. And It's not enough to get me to start dying traps.
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Post by RdFx on Oct 9, 2012 16:15:53 GMT -6
When dyeing with sumac berries i clean boil, rinse, put in dyeing tank with sumac berries (in bag) bring to boil and then shut propane off. Next day take out and jet black and hang up. I then start wax barrell up and wax traps.....Ive let already sumac berry dyed traps set for a month and then dyed.... no rust was evident when i waxed. This is for my water traps . For canine traps , i just clean boil, hang up hot , shake well when taking off (heat fm boiling drys traps quickly) and i wax canine traps... dont have to be dyed....
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