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Post by trappnman on Sept 12, 2012 15:36:57 GMT -6
its come up a few times- use the right presentation.
whats the right presentation?
been thinking about this today while out getting permissions, so have a few thoughts, but I'd like to hear a few other opinions.
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Post by bogio on Sept 12, 2012 20:11:17 GMT -6
I asked the same question from a different angle in the "bait it up" thread but no takers.
1080 hinted that you could possibly hurt rather than enhance a location with improper presentation. OG said the same in Hoofbeats. During the emasculation of MJ on Tman, SH stated that carcasses needed to be presented "naturally" or they could work against you.
How do you make a naked carcass look natural? This isn't how death presents itself in nature however I doubt a coyote can reason that out. Where it has worked best for me is at locations were the carcasses can be placed in some type of cover, 30 to 40 yards from my set location, and with my set location having a slight elevation advantage. As the birds and scavengers clean things up, I add more. This involves hauling carcasses around as I don't skin in the field but appears to be worth the effort and hassle. By spring there is nothing but bones, and by now there's not much evidence left.
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Post by trapperpatt on Sept 12, 2012 22:23:32 GMT -6
Down here carcasses don't last very long. We have 4 month long deer season and that don't help. I put mine in the thickest briar patch I can find. Helps keep the buzzards out. Can't keep the heat away though. Burying meat seems to work purdy good just labor intensive. Generally try to off a major travel upwind few hundred feet. Generally setting snares.
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Post by seldom on Sept 13, 2012 5:27:04 GMT -6
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Post by ColdSteel on Sept 13, 2012 5:54:42 GMT -6
I guess I will be the odd man out here.I trap several hunting club properties where there are deer piles as much as 25 to 50 deer over a two month period and I start trapping in January.I always set these gut piles up and yes I have caught coyotes around them along with grinners and dogs and to be honest I had just soon make sets out in the open on waterways and crop changes in the middle of fields my catch is just as good here and my nontarget catch goes way down
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Post by redeagle on Sept 13, 2012 19:45:49 GMT -6
The dude made me dizzy about half way through that video, so I gave up on it.
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Post by seldom on Sept 13, 2012 20:24:04 GMT -6
The dude made me dizzy about half way through that video, so I gave up on it. ;D ;D Ya, me to but the message about his baiting-up was only seconds into the video when he states they ate 250lbs in two days. My IPad takes better video than whatever he's using! |
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Post by trappnman on Sept 14, 2012 7:04:59 GMT -6
I admit, I don't have a clue about presentation of carcasses.
I done it 3 ways:
toss it in the open near the sets
toss it into cover near the sets
toss it into the open, but put some duff partially over it
and haven't come to any conclusions on to which way, if any, is better.
putting them into cover, does seem to lessen birds o nthe carcesses, but is that a good thing, or not? I do beleive, at least to adegree, that the sound of crows, etc does add to a location- but
or is the presentation a wash, its the location?
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Post by trapperpatt on Sept 14, 2012 19:08:17 GMT -6
I think it's location. I would set a little further in. So i could set the trails coming off the edge too. Hell with that many yotes why bait just trap. But packing that much bait in would be a chore and if u get in to far u have to worry about how to check them.
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Post by rionueces on Sept 14, 2012 19:41:45 GMT -6
I wire carcasses up to a small tree at the edge of a field near a game trail. Wiring keeps the carcass from getting spread around a little longer. The edge provides a good place to set traps if the brush is thick and thorny behind the carcass.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 14, 2012 20:32:14 GMT -6
present your baits in a natural manner and one that the coyotes feel safe and I don't worry about tying them down the more mess the better IMO. Just keep adding to it.
Birds will find it even in cover and still make the sounds that coyotes can pick out easy enough. The real messy ones are magpies, they make a real mess of it and it all adds value to the presentation IMOC.
The more you can stay away the better.
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Post by bogio on Sept 14, 2012 20:47:06 GMT -6
Explain "natural manner".
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 14, 2012 21:00:44 GMT -6
well unnatural would be in the middle of an open area, one where coyotes wouldn't want to spend alot of time millling about unless out of real need to.
Most of my carcass sations where down in draws with cover close by. Make it an easy spot in and out for them and you. One where they would come by to begin with. Depending on traps or snares one can very the location somewhat to make it better for the equipment your using.
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Post by Rally Hess on Sept 14, 2012 22:00:12 GMT -6
I think we had a post similar to this a couple months ago and TC39 and I discussed setting close to a bait like in the video. I used to bait like that also and caught fox, and coyote, but found out not as many as I could. I found I had coyotes in particular stall out and refuse to come to a bait after seing a littermate or another animal dead close to the bait. I caught multiple animals at some of the baits but not nearly what was in the area. Often observing high spots where the coyotes could observe the general area the baits were in but not come much closer. I often set ravines or gravel pits and snared the trails coming to them that I could check by approaching the bait from one direction and looking for catches without going to each snare and leaving trails and odor in the area every day(24 hour check on land snares here). My catch rate would be pretty good at first and then would deteriotate pretty fast also. The age class of both the fox and coyote would vary and didn't represent the family groups that I knew were in the Area, and were evident away from the baits. Snow doesn't lie, and told me I wasn't catching what was there. I'd add a few snares away from the baits usually on the way to the location and noticed I was catching older animals away from the baits, as the baits really slowed down. I'd keep baits going for months at a time and keep checking empty snares on the way to beaver ponds, just because they were on the way. It took me a few years to think on a bigger scale and realise just how many miles a fox or coyote can cover and the number of tracks they make while doing so. About the time I figured I was getting to where there were few to no tracks in the area, I then had to figure out why all of the sudden there were new tracks in the area. Took me a couple more years to figure out the whole dispersal thing.
I often get trailers full of deer scraps from local processors, and distibute them. By then (late November) here there is usually alot of snow, and getting them in the woods where I want them is done by snomobile and daily quantities are limited. I used to drive to the area I wanted to snare and dump them, in quantity, at one or two areas and let the local fox,coyotes, fisher and cats establish trails into them. I'd then snare the trails real hard for a couple weeks and call it good. I caught plenty of animals, but again not what was in the area. I also had alot of knocked down snares, and had both pieces of spine and legbones caught in my snares. Even an ocasional Raven that decide to fly down one of the trails leading away from the baits. If I was too close to town or in a local gravel pit that also was used as the local shooting range, the occasional nosey dog. The number of knocked down snares being caused by the fox/coyote leaving the bait pile with a piece of legbone or spine in their mouth as they ran into the snare. I also find it more difficult to know where a fox or coyotes head will be close to a bait as often they come in with their nose on the ground due to the scent trail left by the last fox leaving the pile while dragging a deer leg or section of spine, or smelling the number of bird tracks around the baitpile. Or the spot where the last fox or coyote to visit the baitpile, urinated to mark it. Also any animal snared close to the bait is going to defacate and urinate before sucumbing to the snare. All of these odors are going to put the animals nose close to the ground and divert their head below normal carrying heigth. Tough to know how high or low to hang a snare when your not sure where their head is going to be.
When we establish a baitpile, it is going to bring predators in from a long way, especially in late winter, when an easy meal is covered in two feet of snow and all the deer gutpiles are cleaned up. If you are in wolf country, you will eventually have your catch eaten by wolves. I've had fox, cats and even a fisher eaten by wolves. For me, it is not a good idea to add to the wolves menu to be concentrated in a small area, to which they will return until all sources of food are gone, including my catch.
I find it is more productive, over a long period of time, to stay well away from my baitpiles when snaring. I like at least a 1/4 mile, and a mile isn't too far, from my snare to the bait. I find i can eliminate most of the scenerios I listed above and do a much better job of catching the family groups in the area early season and then rebaiting my baitpiles during dispersal, usually in conjunction with an under ice beaver line.
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Post by musher on Sept 15, 2012 4:49:56 GMT -6
Excellent post, Rally. A trap/snare set "up" where the animal can look down upon the baited area will help nab the warier ones.
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Post by seldom on Sept 15, 2012 5:14:51 GMT -6
Yes I agree with Musher, excellent post.
This comment is golden-
" without going to each snare and leaving trails and odor in the area every day(24 hour check on land snares here). My catch rate would be pretty good at first and then would deteriotate pretty fast also.".
Pressure. It can be a tough nut to crack when I'm down in the thick brush or tag alder swamps in wintertime snow to be able to check for a catch everyday but not put pressure on the coyote!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 15, 2012 6:48:21 GMT -6
who said setting right on top of the bait? But I have no issues with setting around bends and hills back aways on trails. Many of the razorbacks are blown clear in the winter and the coyotes use these to get to and from trails with ease. A mile or more away? I have never seen the "need" to do such and still get a high % of coyotes caught in snares. Hide them over the trail edge's. With cable extensions one can place them so they are less visable to others that pass by. Scraps I have found aren't as good as whole carcasses, also hard for them to pack off frozen bones, our carcesses where more like pop cicles most winters and you wouldn't get alot of "packing until things warmed up, but giving them a a "safe" place to feed I saw less packing away by coyotes in the first place.More feeding on the location. Here is a great location I would bait every winter had good results here and in other places.  |
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Post by bogio on Sept 15, 2012 7:36:18 GMT -6
Where was your bait station in there and where did you then set to take advantage of it?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 15, 2012 7:53:18 GMT -6
smack dab in the middle in the brush thicket and snared the trails leading into it. I could drive the rim and check them with binocs the snow right off the side is very deep and not an area coyotes are going to travel through. This is a side draw off the main draw in the background leads to the cheyanne river 3 miles south of there.
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9wire
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 16
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Post by 9wire on Sept 16, 2012 11:06:36 GMT -6
Down here in deep south, visual presentation is of little importance due to the land being THICK, THICK, THICK. There is little to no farmland, not much big timber, and if it's not planted in plantation pines it is thick cutover. So we are forced to trap/snare mainly edges, old grown up loggin roads, pipelines, private roadsides, and very few small fields(10-100 acres). So like Trapperpat said, location is key. We normally throw our carcasses right off a travel routes into the thick stuff. Then set the edges- dirtholes and flats where needed and snares in all trails headed toward the carcass. The heat normally don't take long to get the funk rolling and the fun begins... We are also able to check a majority of traps/snares right out the truck window to keep human scent at a minimum. That's jus da way we roll...
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. Marty is absolutely correct!!
