The scent cone debate. Some experts say YES

[trappincoyotes39]

research on the topic of scent cones: The reason the WIND is very important IMOC.

Scent Cone - Scent molecules disperse outwards from their source in a conical pattern, forming a scent cone downwind of the subject. An air scenting dog normally works across or into the wind until he locates the scent cone. At this point the dog will give a natural alert, and will begin working his way into the funnel of the cone until he reaches the source, which is the subject. The dog will then notify his handler of the find by giving a trained alert.

www.strideaway.com/strideaway/ind....one-Primer.html

www.operationtakemehome.org/sar/C....chapter%206.pdf

www.wateroperations.com/sortie/issue1/article14.htm

houndandthefound.wordpress.com/2012/03/

kylewarrendogs.com/2009/04/01/scent-movement-for-trailing-dogs/

[trappnman]

none of those have much of anything to do with the previous discussion

all they are is magazine aticles expressing that authors opinion, and even then, none define scent cone as you are trying to do.

different breeds of dogs are bred (if for scent use) on different nose qualities- thats true. its why you not only have S & R dogs, but flushing dogs vs trailing dogs- and why some dogs are better jump dogs- their noses are able to distinguish and pickup other scent beyond footgland scent better.

but flushing dogs, S & R dogs, STILL are not following cones- they are putting together snippets of scent- and their abilites have been bred into them

thats pretty elementary stuff if you ever competed or used dogs hard I've spent literally 1o00s of hours following beagles and judging/observing them on scent working abilities and actions. The question of scent movement was settled for me long before forums etc

I'll not try to change your mind- believe what you wish on this.

you think scent travels in geometric shapes, I know it travels in strings.

[trappincoyotes39]

So you disagree with these dog handeling experts when they talk about and show referance to scent cones? I think what they state on them working with dogs for a living and training dogs and the science behind such talk has merit I guess if you don't then you don't.

They cover some of the very things we where talking about air currents, cones, what effects scent them working countless dogs for field trials, hunting dogs, dogs used for search and rescue and have 1,000's and 1,000's of hours with dogs.

I give them some validity in this subject for sure!

Here is Pat Hawns Bio: Pat Hawn

Pat is President of the Palisades Search and Rescue Dogs Association. She is a Canine Search Specialist for Mongomery County, MD, FEMA Task Force 1. Her four year old dog, Coty, is a Type 1 (advanced) certified disaster dog and is a mission ready wilderness dog. Pat responds to searches, coordinates and lectures at seminars, and trains members of Palisades.


Have you looked up SORTIE and who they publish for?

[trappnman]

dog handling experts because they wrote a blog or published an article?

ok

if ribbons and trophys are the criteria- how many boxes you want me to send you? I've also, from a small backyard kennel, bred, finshed & owned many Field Champions.

also published several articles for Hounds and Hunting mag back in the day, and had a monthly column in another national beagling publication.

guess that makes me an expert too....

I'm not saying their observations aren't correct in some cases, but am saying nothing there portrays your visualation on how scent travels.

is there a specific article you wish to discuss? if so, quote the parts you think relevent to scent movement and I'l ltell uoui if I agree or disagree

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman no offense but obvious you didn't read much and who these people are, but ok. Also plenty of diagrams explaining scent cones as well in these works.

These peoples credentials are more than back yard breeders.

How to Work in Relation to the Wind

Generally, you want to work your dog perpendicular to and towards the direction of where the wind is coming from. Dogs find the direction to where scent is coming from by moving in and out of the scent cloud or plume. This is called working a scent cone.


Scent cones are very simple for dogs to figure out and the dog will often air scent in these scenarios as well. In latter scent contamination training, once in a while I will take a distracter person and place them along the trail — but nowhere near the end. I will have it set up where the dog will likely smell the decoy. This is a great opportunity to correct the dog verbally through asking the question in your line handling. The dog will often be very enthusiastic about being in a scent cone of a human in the woods when they have been working for a while.

The Scent-Cone is the secret to understanding what dynamic makes hunting dogs classier and more accomplished in hunting and handling game.

Most of the great bird dog trainers/handlers I knew grew up with a pack of hounds. I’ll name four: Clyde Morton, Paul Walker, Er Shelley, Bob Armstrong. They learned most about scent from running foxhounds. One of these, Er Shelley even took a pack of hounds to track game when he traveled to Africa.

Imagine that the concentration of scent effluvium is weaker at the outside of the cone (which is in actuality three dimensional like a funnel). Of course, the cone or funnel is extremely unstable, subject to breezes, dust-infusions, temperatures and barometric pressure. Thus, while essentially narrow where it is laid down, and broadening out, it floats, billows and shrinks and wafts around without any pattern but its very own.

A hound with a less precisely sensitive nose, will need to get closer and closer to the middle of the scent aura. He cannot pick up the outlying faint impression. Thus, when the quarry moves, backtracks or makes any other sudden adjustment, a poor hound will go babbling off and lose the scent trail immediately; while the hound with sound scent acuity is able to track on the very edge or verge of the scent cone, and thus, will not miss any abrupt redirection by the quarry.


The permeation scent cone principle can be understood by answering this question: “How does a police dog smell through a metal gas tank, through gasoline, through plastic PVC pipe, and detect the marijuana stashed inside?” Well, dogs cannot smell through anything, but rather, odors permeate from everything, creating a scent cone outside any and all containers. It is generally accepted by working dog trainers – such as those in the military, the Department of Defense, US Customs, and police services – that over a period of time, scent emanates from a static location up and outwards in a conical configuration called a scent cone, which can be distorted or influenced by heat, moisture, air currents, sunlight, shade and topographical features. You see, the transfer of smell is an exchange of actual molecules in the air, not a gas or vapor. Odor is the detectable (i.e. “smellable”) evidence of molecular movement from solids and liquids into the atmosphere. To illustrate this principle during K-9 academies, I would place tuna fish in a plastic baggie and allow the students to take a whiff of the sealed bag. The fish odor could not be detected at first. As decomposition hastens, the molecules move faster, and the smell becomes more rank and offensive. That’s why later in the day, when the bag of tuna was passed around again, the smell was easily detected; the tuna molecules had passed through the pores of the plastic fabric of the baggie, creating an odor outside the bag. The very same thing happens when hiding your stash: the odor (airborne molecules) of marijuana eventually passes through – or permeates from – the hiding spot, leaving a detectable scent cone near the contraband source. This is why a dog can alert cops to marijuana, even when its floating in a fuel tank, because over time the odors create a scent cone outside the automobile of metal, gasoline, PVC pipe and marijuana. The dog will alert to the marijuana smell.

Coning. This represents neutral thermal conditions with a normal adiabatic lapse rate. It is typical
on a cloud-covered day or night where effects of solar radiation and nighttime cooling are reduced.
This creates excellent airscenting conditions.

[trappnman]

I stopped reading after this, and you should have as well

Of course, the cone or funnel is extremely unstable, subject to breezes, dust-infusions, temperatures and barometric pressure. Thus, while essentially narrow where it is laid down, and broadening out, it floats, billows and shrinks and wafts around without any pattern but its very own.


catch ya later......

[trappincoyotes39]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SvMDxVArSc

Tman that was a snipit of what was said just as the formention one from top experts saying they can be unstable but they all have the belief in scent cone and coning of scent.

This one simplifies the meaning for me.

Imagine that the concentration of scent effluvium is weaker at the outside of the cone (which is in actuality three dimensional like a funnel). Of course, the cone or funnel is extremely unstable, subject to breezes, dust-infusions, temperatures and barometric pressure. Thus, while essentially narrow where it is laid down, and broadening out, it floats, billows and shrinks and wafts around without any pattern but its very own.

I have witnessed this with Coyotes some have better conditions than others, some down wind of me hit the outside edge and have busted me and gone on a calling stand, others need to be directly down wind of me and then catch my scent, but you can tell by the reaction it goes out in a cone shaped form my location being the narrow point and widens as it goes out further by the angle in which I know the wind to be and their location and reaction to picking up my scent. The wide open spaces does wonders to see coyote's react to many things.

[trappnman]

TC- a stationary odor, disipates in a cone pattern, if the wind is mild and steady. A stationary odor, disipates in a circular pattern, in variable winds.

true- but now reread your quote you posted above

any cone pattern in the real world, does not continue to disipate in a cone manner- YES, it keeps expanding out- but as obstacles, terrian, wet/dry winds and pretty much everything on Gods green earth, puts holes in ther pattern and mutates it to an unpredictible state.
When they are talking cone pattern, they are talking about the scent pattern area, nothing more or less. As quoted, the shape is very unstable and is constantly interupted.

So they are picking up bits and pieces and whiffs and snippets- within that scent pattern area-

think of it like this- odors are a gas, and starting from a precise point, if pushed in one direction or another, will expand out from that point in a trianglar pattern, or cone.

yes, thats true, I agree- and its easy to visualize that in one's mind, and can see how at the beginning, it would be a dense, almost "solid' pattern.

but the further away it gets- watch smoke in a room- and the more it distorts and disipates because it reacts to everything-

any variable changes that so the pattern now becomes misformed and not only that, but missing pieces & links- as one of your links said- don't think of the cone as a SOLID pattern- sun and rain can completely eliminate broad pieces of the pattern- or lack of vegitation or too much vegitation.

so in the only way we are concerned with, is that a coyote must be able to not only detect that scent (be in the overall scent disipation pattern) but be able to find a destination of that scent trail.

so once again we come to the question- how far do you think odors in the ground, esp relaitively small amounts, are able to do that?

I've given my opinion- not very darn far because the further away, the more disconnected the strings.

anyone have any thoughts on how far lures consistently blind attract coyotes?

[trappincoyotes39]

you would have to define close as to me in more open areas, under better condtions to keep more of the cone intact, like stable wind direction, humidity, less vegitation it keeps a more consistant form than other areas of the US for sure.

Do coyotes work in at many sets at an angle or majority straight downwind?

Also go call some coyotes and watch their reactions as they work in and see if the cone theory has much to it or not? Watching them and how they react from their postion in relation to the sound position and how they work the wind is quite interesting indeed.

[B.Evans]

Trappnman, do you use the wind to your advantage?

[trappnman]

Depends-

on travelways I do not- I never set lanes or trials with single sets- always opposite paired sets. winds always going to be blowing scent across coyotes path- one reason flat sets work so well on such locations

on "the spot" locations I try to if given the option to set so coyotes are approaching them into the NW direction.

[irnhdmike]

I have it figured out. When scenting is good ,it is good. When it is poor,it is poor. Now if i could determine when it will be good or poor I would be an expert.

[Zagman]

Seems like apples and oranges somwhat, hounds vs. a set with lure.

Hound's quarry is moving......constantly. When a hound really opens up and screams its when he jumps the animal that was bedded and the scent from the bed is smoking hot and concentrated.

Lured set is staying in the same place all the time.....and not moving. The wind moves the "cone" around, but the set and lure never move.

Apple pie in Ma's window vs. throwing the pie in the car and traveling to Grandma's with it.

If you are setting only "the spot" is there really a need for long distance calling attributes of a lure?

MZ

[trappnman]

If you are setting only "the spot" is there really a need for long distance calling attributes of a lure?

IMO yes, there is- the more a scent is out there, either close or far, the stronger the scent trail back to a set. and "heavy" lures, lures that settle on stuff, are what make a long distance lure, don't they?

You smell skunk at a location where a dead skunk was long after you remove the skunk- why would be because that odor residue (particles in the scent) has settled down, onto grass etc, providing a long lasting stream of scent to the air.

so long distance lures not only get out further, but they last longer.

I should do more high call lure use, but I don't- but those that do, use large amounts- bottles of the stuff- so cal llure i nthe ground, while it gets out there further than some other lures, really isn't a far reaching lure in the aspect we think "going to call them from there to here" type stuff

and there is a side issue of do ingreidients that make up such lures, have better effects on coyotes than other type of lures?

again, in my opinion, I think thats true. I'll not argue there's not a time and place for mild not wild, but I don't leave a set without a loud lure there- I have, I just don't now.

I want my set to be a beacon of fire in a sea of darkness-

[trappincoyotes39]

Mercaptan is what makes a skunks odor linger and have staying power.

Other lures formulated can also have lingering abilities just to our noses it isn't the same, as many aren't sulfur based like a skunks.

Our nose is nothing like a canines and hard to tell what they are actually breaking down in many scents.

But the theory of stationary or moving is a valid one for sure. That area is getting more absorbtion because of the lack of movement of that odor.

[trappnman]

with lack of movement, there would be no scent pattern.

[trappincoyotes39]

wind moves scent molocules be it staionary or moving still moves it and has it absorb into things.

It is called diffusion and makes us smell things that are stationary like things in an oven or a crock pot. When you first walk into a house.

The wind can move those molocules down the way, like smelling a cooking burger from a burger joint from 100 yrds downwind. There would be a scent pattern.

[Stef]

Mercaptan is what makes a skunks odor linger and have staying power.

I don't agree.

Mercaptan is use here in the natural gas and it smells like rotten eggs.

Mercaptoethanol has been used in SFE formulation in very small quantity

[Freak( Jim V.)]

Most interesting read ive seen on here in awhile....one of those things that i fret over. To the point og trying mercury in my lures so it stays settled lower rather than up , up and aways. thermals , air currents , setting low vs high...hmmmm where does it end?? Answer , it doesnt. always open for debate until we can teach a canine to talk and explain his version of smell to us. hahaha... but scent cones are just that , not the text book picture version but rather a simple smallest point at object giving off the scent to the widest point at the furthermost limitations of the scent itself. Kind of like watching an old pepe le plew cartoon...Yall enjoy your discussion now..

[trappincoyotes39]

stef here is something to read: mercaptan

mercaptan (murkăp'tăn) [key]or thiol (thī'ōl) [key], any of a class of organic compounds containing the group -SH bonded to a carbon atom. The volatile low-molecular-weight mercaptans have disagreeable odors. Mercaptans are found in crude petroleum, and methyl mercaptan is produced as a decay product of animal and vegetable matter. They also are produced by certain plants and animals; e.g., allyl mercaptan is released when onions are cut, butanethiol (butyl mercaptan) derivatives are present in skunk secretion, and mercaptans are among the sulfur compounds causing the disagreeable odor of flatus. T-butyl mercaptan blends are often added to the odorless natural gas used for cooking and serve to warn of gas leaks. Mercaptans take part in a wide variety of chemical reactions. Their principal uses are in jet fuels, pharmaceuticals, and livestock-feed additives.