Results of my coon hide test

[thebeav2]

I took 10 hides at random. All the hides had already been fleshed.
I hung each hide and and measured from the tip of the nose to the base of the tail.

I picked out ten Identical boards. I placed the hide on the board and held both sides of the coon and rammed the board against the floor this brings down the hide as far It will go at the nose and shoulders. I ten grabbed both hind leg fur and pulled as far down as I could and at the same time pulling the legs around to the belly side of the board. Holding both hind leg fur with one hand I placed a staple right at the base of the tail on each side. Then I released the leg fur and pulled down the skirt fur and placed one more staple on each side of the back. I then pulled down on the tail and stapled a screen over the tail. At this point I made my measurements. In the 9 out of the ten coon I gained 2 1/2 inches. On the one odd ball coon I gained 4".
And In all cases It made no difference what so ever If the coon was a female or a male. It all about the board NOT THE COON.

I didn't have any Un fleshed coon so I can't comment on what the difference would have been between the length of a Un fleshed coon and a fleshed coon. But It's all about the end results of a fleshed coon on the board.

I will say this there Is no way you can gain this length by using wire. You just can't make the initial pull down like you can on wood. Driving the wood stretcher up Into the head and shoulder area Is what Is getting you some of that extra length. I think If I would have used a pair of pliers when pulling down the skirt fur I could have easily gained another 1"

If your country buyer was buying by length then I think you would at least gain another grade. But since they don't you might as well sell In the grease. But If your selling through the auction system where every coon hide Is measured for length then It would be the way to go.

[trappnman]

thanks- it s about as I figured, based on mink, rat ,coyotes performance

but you went from facts, to speculation.

my question was only on how unstretched, faired against stretched- that is, is measuring a unstretched skun coon, had any relationship to the final product.

if you can pull it on wood, you can pull it on wire-

[thebeav2]

There Is NO speculation. Wire stretchers are WAY TO WIDE In the nose and shoulder area. And the fastening devices just don't do a very good job. The hooks hold the legs and the tail but don't hold down the skirt area. I know because last night I ran out of wood and I had to finish the last 15 coon on wire. They look pretty good but you just can't get the length.

My next test will be with the wire versus the wood. Same hide stretched on two different forms wire and wood.

The other huge problem I see with wire Is that Is no good way of drying the tails. When you hook the tail on wire It just closes up and takes twice as long to dry as It does on wood.

[racer53]

Hey Beav, I dont use wire now but when i did i used clothes pins on the tail to spread them apart.

Your old friend Russ

[mtcbrlatrap]

When I had 2 dozen # 5 wire coon stretchers I took a wood form that Greg Gave me and bent all the nose area of the wire stretchers in and then put duct tape around at the shoulders, 24 inches, 30 inches and 63 inches and formed them just like the wood frame. Still had the issues with the two clips, tails and keeping the length. Cut a dozen boards 18 inches long and duct taped them to the bottom of the wire forms and then pinned the pelts down. Worked OK but was not permanent. Found a guy that paid me $5.00 per dozen more than I paid for them used and bought my first larger volumes of wood.
When I thaw my coons to flesh most if not all stretch longer than I believe they would so to me there is a large advantage in putting up the fur. One can argue which forms wire or wood but the real important leap is to flesh them and dry them. The difference between in the grease and wire is bigger than wire to wood in my opinion.

Bryce

[trappincoyotes39]

Bryce exactly, and yellow coon are yellow coon no changing color. Talking with the local buyer a few days ago I'm betting coon will be in for a tough road in the future with the weather being what it was this fall and winter there will be a pile of coon on the market, betting a large carry over of coons going into next season.

[thebeav2]

Trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear Is the same as screwing around trying to convert a wire stretcher to where It will do a passable job. Once you get done you still have mediocre stretcher.

[thebeav2]

Hey Russ hows things going? MS was a good time.

[trappnman]

you may well be right on coon vis a vis wire and length, I don't know-

but- with coyotes- you get the same length on wire- if not a tad more more

[thebeav2]

But you and I know that It makes no difference on length when It comes to coyotes fox and cats. Well at least when your talking a few Inches.

I have several wood coyote stretchers some are adjustable some are solid. And a few have a different type nose arrangement. I have ONE wire coyote stretcher.

I will make a test on wire versus wood on coyotes. I did catch a coyote In a cable restraint yesterday but It's already put up. But I do have 25 more skinned coyotes In the freezer. I'll let you know how It comes out.

They want me to put up some badgers. $7.00 from start to finish. Any tips on putting up badgers.They want them dried open.

[td]

Get someone else to do it. Seriously, open now??? 3-4 yrs ago a couple thanksgiving eastern Ks badger go for $105 or something like that. I ain't doing them open. Shows how much gristle is left on them too easy.

Even more seriously: 1) use a sharp knife on the gristle. I use a beaver knife on some of it. 2)Fur out hides a mediocre fleshing job and doesn't seem to affect price 3) Don't get too much grease in the fur. It doesn't come out very good with cold water wash and Downy rinse, or boraxing if you muck it up too bad. 4) badgers stink. 5) get someone else to do it. 6) badger rear leg tendons won't hold up to a skinning machine.

Hell, if you want a longer nose on your coon, just hang it by the nose on your eye hook hangars, pull down firmly, and let it dry. lmao Back in the boom, our buyer called some of ours spears if we pulled them a little too long trying to get size (not on the nose, of course. On the ass), then would make a dramatic spear toss into the appropriate pile. lol

That "too wide at the nose and shoulders" wire stretcher can be narrowed. All ours are. Start at top and squeeze together until it's shaped like you want. Pull it back apart if you over do it.

I have one wood board and have stretched the same coon on it and wire several times for comparison. Gain almost nothing to sometimes an inch. I think it all comes because it's only 6 3/4" at the base. resulting in a 7" wide pelt. Off the wires, the pelts are 7 1/4".

I can get my skirts straight across with wire and usually without clothes pins. Pull down and in towards the base of the tail, and if they were opened right, they're pretty much straight across when dry.

Wood's for keeping the fur shed warm ...... and stretching $750 dollar cats. Oh yeah, also for piddling around pleating tails on $20 critters to make 'em look nice.

As for the topic at hand, I dunno.

[thebeav2]

I put up over 2000 coon In the last month or so but I still don't know what I'm doing.

Thanks for the Info on the badgers Td. I was surprised that NAFA wanted them dried In the open position. If I did them I would probably skin them cased then flesh them then open them to dry. But I might just pass

[trappnman]

don't know what you do or don't do- but I DO know you need to read whats previously posted-

you may well be right on coon vis a vis wire and length, I don't know-



If you say you can get more length on wood vs wire with coon- then thats what you say, and as I said, on coon, I don't know-

but I DO know on coyotes.

and what I know, is that length, doens't change on wood vs wire, when both are done in a "normal" manner.

Hook the top of the wire and the nose over a stout nail, and pull.

you can pull it drum tight, and it stays that way. the wire gives, and more length is extruded.

insofar as tails- again on coon, I don't know- but again on coyotes, I do. and what I know, is the tails dry the same on wood, as wire. without rotting, without being burned, in other words- just fine.

I've seen flip flopping on woods vs wire, to suit the arguement more than once. but despite the comment someone posted, wire vs wood is simply a personal choice, at least in the furs I put up which are everything but coon and beaver.

and keep in mind, that Groeny puts up 10,000s of coon each year-on wire. Why? easier sure, but if he could make 50 cents more per coon over the labor costs of doing them on wood- why would he not?

if he could get 1 or 2 sizes larger out of every coon he bought (which he paid green prices for) why on God's green earth, would he not?

I'm thinkin' HIS thinking, is overall, just doesn't matter so go with easier.

I put mink up on wood- don't own any wire, but I've seen mink on wiore, and they sold just fine.

Rats- always was a wire man, but started going to wood after the infamous and memory shrinking debates on them in past years- until my buyer told me- PLEASE go back to wire, you get (in his opinion, and thats all that matters to me) a bigger rat on wire.

fox- I see a difference in their shoulders wood vs wire, so all our fox such as they are, are put up on wood.

coyotes I see no difference in finished pelt, my buyer doesn't care, so I use both- my wood boards are big, and I need the length whereas even my large wire, a big one hangs below the end.

beaver- when I put them up, never saw any difference between wire over wood in selling price.

and no I haven't sold here, and I haven't sold there- but think about it- if my present buyer could make more money off my fur if put up different, he'd be telling me, and I'd be doing it.

like mink tails- I HATE that pleated look, I like doing it old school, and I asked several years ago- will you pay more for my mink, if if pleat?

and his answer was no- if that ever occurred, he'd tell me.............

a good fur is a good fur, a poor fur is a poor fur- as long as its fleshed correctly, as long as it's undamaged, not slipping or tainted, as long as it's dried in the proper shape and done right (fur in, fur out, windows, left on stretcher long enough, etc)-

its 6 of one, half a doz on the other.

to bring it to a point of "only a fool does it THAT way", as one deleted post implied, is ridiculus-

in this arena if in no others, the saying about "different ways to skin a cat" comes to mind.

going back to my original question- how does unstetched length on coon compare to stretched measurements, thanks for your measuring.
'
meaning at this time of year for me, my "average" run is about all 4x- and its been that way really all season- not many small or large coon around-

[yack]

I agree with Bryce on this one. I also learned this from Greg Schroeder.
I have alot of wire coon stretchers, they all have a 16"-18", piece of 7/16"s basswood, 7 1/4"s wide, duct taped into the bottom of the frame. This gives you a 7 1/2" base, which is what NAFA wants. You can go wider, not narrower. I also bend my frames the same as a wood stretcher(I also have alot of these). If you don't bend the frames they will be wider around the shoulders, and harder to remove from the stretchers, you may as well turn this into length. You can tell the differance between wire, and wood, but not because of size! They also dry faster on the wire-wood framed stretchers.
I use push-pins, and get a nice straight bottom to my coon hides., Then tack the tail open.
Another thing from Greg, is to use a pliers to pull the hide down before pinning. When they dry they dry loose, so you don't lose fur density. I use the pliers, to grab the rear legs, and really wrench down on them, they still dry loose.
I wouldn't do that on a mink, I hate the look, but I do pleat my mink tails for better fur densities. Yes, it does help, I regularly get Top Lot certificates for my mink. I know we are not talkng mink, but I'm on a roll. Pin the legs on the same side as the tail, and pull the fur on either side of the tail first, then the legs, then pleat the tail, works for me.
One more thing, is that I do gain sizes, but you gain the size by keeping the base flat. I'll guarantee you, they aren't paying nothing for that little triangle of fur by the tail, but if I pull the base down straight I gain length. This really only matters on the smaller coon, once they hit 4x, there all graded the same. Heres another little tidbit. If I take my fur to any of the local fur buyers, they will ussually grade your fur, small, medium, large. I have never had a coon grade smaller than a large on auction, and I've been shipping fur to Canada since the late 70s. That always blows me away! I do have a couple pretty small ones this year, so I might ruin my record, we shall see.
I"ll be shipping to NAFA on Saturday. I don't cherry pick, I send everything, heII nobody around here is going to buy my damaged, or small hides. When I get my results back, I'll post my averages.
One last thing, if you can watch Greg at one of the trapping conventions, DO IT! You will learn so much about fur handling, even if you only skin, and sell green. I would suggest that if you can handle fur yourself do it, it pays. Last year I averaged just under $18 across the board, on all of my mink(male, and female). $22 on my coon across the board, I was offered right around $12 nose count, on the coon, at my local furbuyers.
It took me all of December to handle my fur, so you have to decide if handling your own fur pay's, I sure think so.
Jim

[trappnman]

we will have to disagree on mink tails- I personally feel that any density gained by pleating a tail, is negligible and means nothing in the grading. If you pin the legs, and then pleat a untaut tail to the base- any extra density if such occurs, would occur just through the laws of physics, a millimeter or two into the actual pelt.

much more important in my mind, is using the correct size stretcher for mink- for wild mink, 2 sizes don't fit all, and I got a myriad of different sizes, tapers, etc for both males and females so that 1) the ears are where they should be, and 2) you have no side looseness, esp in the shoulders and haunch area.

---------------------------
not sure where you are selling local yack- but I've never had my coon grade into small, medium and large.

Mine typically DO go into three grade piles- but not those grades.

most of mine are in "top grade pile". and you might or might not agree with how that that works, but to me I think its fair.

for example, lets say the top grade pile, is $20. That means that the coon in that grade, are going to, range from say $18 to $22 in worth per pelt.

so that, based on mucho experience with coon from his area, a buyer knows that this coon might go $22, that coon might go $18 (meaning what he expects to pay, based on what he expects to resell them for plus put up costs).

but the size, while important, really doesn't matter per individual fur. if a 3x has poor fur, even though its size would determine one grade, its fur is the final grade- because the resale value determines the price paid, or the 'grade". and I've had many smaller coon, go into the top pile, simply because the fur quality was high, meaning while size graded smaller, the worth was higher

you typically have 3 of these grade piles- but the piles are based on average worth, not size per se-

I read and hear so much on how auctions are the only way to go- and have seen quite a few auction slips from people wishing to share- and from those in MY area, year I and year out- my local prices, when adding to them the cost of put up, shipping, any auction fees, etc- are so close to being the average of the auction boys, and yes some years they do better but others I do better.

its all personal preference. To me, knowing 2 things-

#1- knowing that if fur really takes a down turn, and things look bleak, to know (and I've been told this many times over the years when bad markets occurred) to "go ahead and trap steve- he would take care me" is priceless.

that even in a year when many local buyers stop buying, and auctions hold fur for months and years- I'll still be able to sell what I produce.

#2- I can sell any day I wish to, cash in hand.

all selling local does, for me, is to let me sell what I produce, at a set price. I don't want to gamble- I'm a bird in the hand worth two in the bush kind of guy. Knowing for example that my coyotes are out of the shed, and the moneys in my hand, means more to me that taking a gamble on future markets.

the reward can be high, but so can the risk. If I really wanted to gamble, I could take a share of my fur money, and try my luck at Treasure Island.

and it is a gamble-

last year, my local buyer, lost over $900 on my coyotes- a fact he pointed out to me this year, showing me both what he graded and paid me for mine, and what he in turn resold them for.

not too many years ago, I had a darn good late season on rats- and sold 500 or so of them for over $7- a few weeks later at auction, you couldn't give rats away. I would have lost several 1000 dollars that year.

I've seen the same happen with mink- and one year, actually had my mink graded, and he was writing prices down ,when he had a call from a big mink buyer- and the mink market was sagging badly- offers had dropped 30-40% overnight.

he got off the phone, and told me the news and his notes- I'm thinking "CRAP!"and he says- don't worry, we made our deal before the call-

it all comes down to this-

what YOU want to do.

I want the option of selling when I deem, I want cash in hand, I want that market to be consistent, for me, year after year.

and I understand, that my approach isn't the norm for all. If you work fulltime, and look at fur as a "extra" then why not gamble?

I've sold fur 4 times so far this year, and will again next week.

Fur is a commodity, that I look at as a paycheck, and as a paycheck, I like getting paid more than once a year.

How I do it, might not be right for all- but its right for me.

[thebeav2]

First Of all If you go to Greg's shop you won't see any wire stretchers He Is using wood. NAFA Insists that when I put up their fur I use WOOD
All I'm saying Is why screw around trying to make a wire stretcher do what wood does naturally.

Steve Groney use's wire because It's cheap. He doesn't care about size.
Have you ever been to his place.? probably not.
Here's what happens when a green coon comes to his shop. First It's skinned then cut from straight up the belly It's stretched out flat on fleshing machine and fleshed. then it's draped over a wire stretcher and zip tied In place till dried. So groney cares not about size or for that matter what the hide looks like.

The point between using wire over wood makes no difference If your selling In the country But wood will and does get you more money when your selling through the auction system. The country buyer doesn't buy looking at exact square Inches but the auction company does. That's why rats are scanned and all your coon and beaver and otter are measured to the exact Inch, have you ever seen your country buyer get out his tape to measure anything. No he has a set price that he Is working with. He knows what he's going to pay for a certain Item before he even sees It.

I have proved beyond the shadow of doubt that I can get more out of a wood stretched rat then you can on wire It's fact. I have done more rats In the last month then you have caught In your whole life. I know what I'm talking about. But your problem Is that you just don't have the right shaped stretchers. I don't care how hard you try and how many clothes pins you use you can't hold the skirt down to It's maximum length. As that hide dries that skirt fur shrinks and drags those clothes pins right along up the stretcher. When you pin a hide on wood It stays In place.

I have 200 rats to BOARD and 20 coon to flesh and 3 coyotes to BOARD I better get going Oh ya have to check some CRs Have a good day.

[thorsmightyhammer]

you know what they say....

If you dont know dont say and one thing I will flat out gurantee you is when it comes to beaver you will loose money using hoops.

But what do I know, I've only put up several thousand over the years.

And you are right gary.

Guys like groenwald and weibke are working on percentages, not getting the last cent out of every pelt.

[yack]

Steve;
Very true, about it being "what YOU want to do".
For me the auctions work, I don't care when I get my money, and I feel that my fur no matter what the size, or quality, gets an honest grade.
I'm not saying that your furbuyer, or any other furbuyer is dishonest, or don't know how to grade fur. I just feel that I get the most honest grade from the auction. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not.
You have a good relationship with your buyer, I don't.
The disadvantage with getting the honest grade is that I can't hide any defects in the hide or it's quality.
If I take a bunch of green hides in, unfleshed, you know as well as I do that there are things in there you don't want the furbuyer to pick up on, and your not going to mention anything unless he brings it up.
There are circumstances where selling often, and local pay's.
I take pride in handling my fur, to me it's all part of being a "trapper", and I'm going to sell my fur when it's done, which is right now.


Steve;
How about this for a test.
I'll bring my fur over tomorrow, and let you take it to your furbuyer.
I'll be elsewhere, you get a bid, then I'll send it to the auction, and we will see who would have come out on top.
Jim

[yack]

Steve;
You can't tell your furbuyer about this, because if he would offer enough money he's going to be buying my fur. LOL
Jim

[trappnman]

yack- IIf you want to take your fur to my buyer, and see what he pays, then do so. My guess, if the putup is as good as you state, that you would get an offer in the low 20s.

what I'm saying if your local buyer is paying $12 average for 3-4x coon, you are smart to ship.

yes, I do have a very good relationship with my local buyer- that comes from several things- he paying a fair price, his knowing hes get most of my fur, his knowing after the years how I skin, how I take care of fur, a loyalty that goes both ways.

I find it to be common myth, that those that sell some fur green, don't 1) know how to handle fur and 2) don't take pride in their fur.

I'll match my canines, mink, etc with anyone- and my green coon as well.

I take great exception to this- while it might be true for some, the same is true for some that put up fur a well- I see some real poor put up fur.

the fact is, someone that has a good green market for certain pelts- works just as hard if not more so, than those that ship (doesn't pay to brush, clean, wash fur after all it gets drummed)

What I DO know- after selling hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of coon local, that my green prices are, year in and year out, very comparable with auction prices. And part of that, is the care of the pelt from trap to his shop-

one reason green often brings less local, is cause the buyer doesn't know how a seller both skun his coon (holes, etc) and how he takes care of it- was it caught, dried, skun and froze, or was it laying in back of truck for a week?

but even so- hard to hide a hole big enough to matter, hard to hide poor fur, hard to hide blue leather- whether green or put up.

what looks like a casual eye, often isn't..................

my buyer, after years of buying my coon, doesn't worry about me "hiding" anything-

if you want a good relationship with a local buyer, it needs to be developed over time-

-----------------------

steven- I'll take your word for it- I've never shipped beaver- but when I put up beaver, I had no difference in price for similar sized beaver on wood or wire- whether you can get a larger beaver with wood vs wire- I didn't comment on. I'll bow to your experience.

but I no longer put them up- reading auction prices over the years, my green averages more than make me happy, and at $3 less per pelt for green vs put up, I'll continue to skin and freeze.

--------------------------------------

beav, beav, beav- you don't have a clue on how many rats I've put up over the last 50 years. and since the bravado wagon is out, I'm sure I've put up and sold far more of my "own' rats, than you dream of.

but that's neither here nor there- lets just say we both have put up a lot of rats.

I went to wood, based on your advice- I'm back to wire, based on the advice of a man who has bought and sold, personally, 100s of 1000 rats over the decades.

but each to their own-

and yes, I've seen "my country buyer" use a tape


I've never used a clothespins in my life on rats as per " I don't care how hard you try and how many clothes pins you use you can't hold the skirt down "

if you squeeze the wire, and if you whip saw the sides down to eliminate any looseness, then LOCK the arms DOWN under tension- the skirt isn't going anywhere.

if it shrinks, its shrinking in such a small way, that it makes no difference to anybody.

Beav- how small a measurement variation did you have between rats in the same grade, when Wiebkie scanned and square-inch measured your rats?

------------------------

groeny is such a poor businessman, that he throws away a small fortune each year, because wire is easier?

cool-

say it takes an extra dollar in labor, to put it up on wood- but surely the gain of $$$$ would offset that labor cost?

Percentages? He would be an absolute FOOL, to not use wood,

Even 50 cents more per coon, would be more than enough incentive with his volume. and since wood gives you what? - 1 to 2 sizes bigger- that return would be much more per coon than 50 cents.

well, whatever I guess...

I guess there IS only one way to skin a cat..................