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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 9, 2011 21:58:09 GMT -6
Did you miss what I wrote? They don't last long so little BMP concerns.
I don't think any BMP is being broke down to traps approved for pups, sub adults or adults of any species.
Yes there are areas of the US where coyote depredation is of little concern due to livestock practices and other variables. Good ADC isn't total population supression, but working key areas of past concern and areas of open range sheep production. Timing is the key to keeping losses low and also not enough time, man power or money to carry out widespread population reduction when considering the amount of coyotes over a vast area for a length period of time needed to show much in the way of measurable results.
Besides how much damage could a 7lb pup do in a trap caught by 3 feet?
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Post by robertw on Apr 9, 2011 22:18:30 GMT -6
You have three times the trauma.  |
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 6:11:43 GMT -6
actually, you would have 1/3.........................  you do contridict yourself on the bmps though TC- your answer that they will be dead shortly so it doesn't matter, is exactly what fur trappers are saying about the bmps. on the other hand, to state that all coyotes cause damage, and need to be eliminated, is false. now, you CAN state that they eat wildlife- but so what? so do cats, fox, coon, possums, mink and so forth. one fallacy that needs to stop- is that trappers care about wildlife control per se- they don't, and with rare exceptions never have. |
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Post by RdFx on Apr 10, 2011 6:47:54 GMT -6
I would differ on statement, (is that trappers care about wildlife control per se
they don't, ) When wildlife control whether private or state -federal come in and take "fur bearing" animals during trapping season when regular trappers are trapping , there are bad feelings
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 6:53:22 GMT -6
There are- but isn't that about money?
why did old trappers leave seed?
very few trappers trap depending on whats causing the most damage (possums for example)- instead trapping what brings the most money.
take rats- they have been damaging wetlands in SD for decades- yet, until rats reached the current prices, you had little if any pressure on them. And certainly few NR out after them.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 8:14:52 GMT -6
RDFX remember when I talked about timing. The majority of ADC control isn't done in Oct,November and December and even the first part of January so little competition if a rancher has issues durring these times and wants direct relief he will call on a hired trapper, most are very willing to ler anyone trap or call coyotes all fall and winter long for recreation and money. If people are running a trapline, calling or whatever on a ranch I stay out of there until spring as do the majority of guys I know.
Tman their is a differance between summer time control work and fur trapping, so I don't see how my statments are different concerning the BMP's.
No differance from what sharp shooters do to control deer and deer hunting both take deer but aside from that fact, far different.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 8:21:35 GMT -6
so what you are saying TC- is that bmps are unimportant to the animal/public perception issue in control work, and only apply if the animal is going to be pelted?
the only animal I trap where the farmer doesn't want them all gone, are mink... and probably them too.
why should the bmps mean anything then to me?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 9:29:05 GMT -6
The BMP's should mean something to everyone, but we don't all have control of all cirumstances correct? Even a trap that passes a BMP for say coyotes, does that mean we can gurantee every coyote to hit that threshold of injury? No it does not, guidlines is what this is all about.
The farmer wanting them all gone is the perception the coyote has gottne through the years and passed on down the line. Is it possible to make them all gone? Nope not over a large enough area not to see new coyotes move back in there. Population and terrain will dictait how many will filter back in.
If I set a trap in July I'm betting my foot injury scores would be far better because most aren't going to have the same time to fight a trap like one caught in October or November or March or April. But the traps would never pass because of death. That is 1 criteria set forth for leghold traps. Killer type traps time to death is a measurement in the exact opposite.
The BMP's aren';t telling you if legal in your state you can;t trap coyotes in the summer, they are giving you overall guidlines of the best traps to use for the species, under the criteria's set forth.
BMP's should mean something to all trappers because of the importance of public perception should they not? Our past history and things that have been happing as of late should show any trapper the improtance of BMP"s.
Yes many states have rules and regs set for hunters that are not in effect for extreme control measures. How many states allow noght hutning of deer with night vision? In order to lessen public fear and perceptions many in specialized control are allwoed to use night vision and geothermal to be efficant on control type measures.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Apr 10, 2011 9:43:34 GMT -6
take rats- they have been damaging wetlands in SD for decades- yet, until rats reached the current prices, you had little if any pressure on them. And certainly few NR out after them.
Probably because NR's couldnt go there until about 4 to 6 years ago.
You could've made money out there at a buck fifty carcass price, the volume was/is there.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 10:10:05 GMT -6
lets not get too far afield TC-
you said They don't last long so little BMP concerns.
ditto in my trapping-
so- why should I follow the bmps?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 10:12:29 GMT -6
Tman not decades at all, the rat population has been comming back over the last 5-6 years. Out west we had few to none for many years and now ranchers report of rats in stock dams and you see a few hut's around even out here now.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 10:24:48 GMT -6
Tman that is the beauty of the BMP's follow them or not that is up to you! I choose to use traps that have passed BMP's for some species and others that did not make the grade at this time, but could make changes as I or you see fit in our trapping can we not?
Robert made the comment I should have seen that 7lb pup caught by 3 legs besides death I doubt there was much damage to that coyote. It wasn't the trap but the conditions that altered the outcome.Foothold traps aren't meant to cause death and death is a no no on the BMP"s for such a tool,unless set up on a drowning rig. we claim them to be selective so for the majority of trappers that is what we must show and test.
Public perception and having data to back our claims is what legitimizes what we all do.
If we want trapping to continue on for future generations we can either be apart of the process and pass some guidelines or standards or buck the system and see how that plays out in the public arena.
WE tried that in states like Colorado, Washington, Arizona, Mass, and a few others the outcomes not so good. The BMP's where created to appease public perception and to allow the mvement of fur, now that they are created those that pushed hard the EU have painted themselves in a corner to follow or develope their own standards as well on ranch fur production. I'm betting plenty if they had to rethink would have never started this, but I also bet it was a good idea for us to follow through with the BMP"s irreguardless as again it all comes back to public perception and data obtained.
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Post by claytoncarr on Apr 10, 2011 10:29:10 GMT -6
are you using a jake for coyotes or fox? On coyotes the jake does a great job and you get little in the way of binding or trash build up. You don't have to dig a pit to set a jake if your using a bowl shaped bed to begin with, it has a very flat profile just like a sterling, minus the shock spring which I have found to be a good addition for various reasons. I bed the shock spring in the bottom of the bed. Besides with windy conditions I like my traps a little deeper to begin with. One of the pluses to a trap with decent jaw height. Based on your comment I have to question whether you ever used a jake. Are you stating a duke #4 has the same profile as a jake? Theres no comparison profile wise. |
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 11:01:06 GMT -6
No I'm not stating they have the same profile as a duke #4 I'm stating the profile of the Jake causes No issues when using them as a coyote trap! Yes I have used the Jake clayton and I never stated they have the same profile as any trap, I have them and started using them late last summer, They set flat low profile, levers low, losse jaw touching base plate etc. The only thing that comes into play is the shock spring, but as I stated the bowl shape beds I like to use helps with that. What I have never set is a 4 duke that is a fact. I'm sure th profile is different becuase they aren't the same trap! Is it enough to cause issues on coyotes? I highly doubt it as I use pelnty of 3 bridger modifieds which some claim are real clsoe to a #4 Duke correct or not? Here is a pic from a #3 victor LS versus a jake one can see the obvious differances and yes you can more space between the jaws with wire levers and the way they ride and jaw shape but a concern with coyotes? Not that I jhave seen to date. Hence the reason of the orignal question clayton was he trapping coyotes or fox with those jakes.  |
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 11:06:54 GMT -6
heavens to betsy- my "rat opinion" is so non relevant to the point, but it seems as if its the new topic- I made it only to show that wildlife control is NOT the goal of trappers per se. substitute cats in KS then- if cats were $10, you'd not havem any traveling there to trap cats, or having locals put much of an effort into it. or otter or whatever-
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 11:10:10 GMT -6
TC- you simply cannot make an arguement statement that bmps are the be all and end all to trapping futures- then make a statement like " not long enough in the trap to matter".
heres my point again- WHY is this any different, from the average trappers view?
why do you support, and defend bmps, when they matter so little to you in the real world, as evidenced by your statement in this thread?
is it a case of do what you say, not as you do?
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Post by thebeav2 on Apr 10, 2011 11:13:15 GMT -6
I must have missed something. When did we start comparing long sprigs to coil springs?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 11:43:03 GMT -6
I support the BMP's to the alternative that the sky is falling because the US decided to do them and because they gain trappers something, ask 5 different people and you can get 5 different answers. Guidlines and public perception Tman. No it is a case use what you feel benfits you and just know the BMP"s are their as a base line for trappers and education for those in the wildlife field.
Beav I had this photo to show the jaw differances is all, look close you might learn something from that photo. If you like when I have time I could show you a photo between a 3 bridger and a jake.
Measure the jaw distance at it's widest point on a 3 bridger 6" and a jake 6" and then from the base plate to the bottom of the jaw their is only 1/8" differance between the 2, you get closer to 1" at the top of the jaws differance of useable space because of the lever design differances, but nothing about the jake trap is a negative for catching or holding coyotes in a comfortable manner.
To state the jake trap is less than coyote friendly, well I don;t agree at all. I also don't agree you need to dig a pit to bed one either.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 10, 2011 12:14:12 GMT -6
No it is a case use what you feel benfits you and just know the BMP"s are there as a base line for trappers and education for those in the wildlife field.
I can accept that- but thats a change in direction from your previous stance.
but then it should clearly state such
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 10, 2011 12:21:34 GMT -6
A change in my stance really? I have always stated that you have the right to use what ever you deemed best. The opposite has always been the sky is falling because of the BMP's has it not? That years back these would lead to regulation and mandation correct?
Here are a few post from the BMP thread made by me:
My coyote traps I use all passed the BMP protocols. So yes I use them because they work and work darn well. New that prior to testing in most cases was surpised at the coyote cuff 33 not making the grade for testing though.Coons No I still use 1.5 coils because they work and work well, still have chewing though, just because they didn't pass the standards set forth doesn't make them a BAD trap, we could change standards and make big changes to what passes, that isn't the point! The standard was set and that is what is tested. I am going to order jaw guards soon and weld them on and for shittes and giggles next year try them on dry ground to see what comes of it. I have a few ideas to try. I will see if I loose any efficantcy from them or not with my ideas.[b/]
Another:
Tman not inhumane, there is more to the BMP's than just welfare scores! Efficiency,safety, and practicality are the other 3 areas of testing. The goal is to see the further development of better traps and we have seen that through the years, then tested and see if they perform to standards. If not no one I know calls them inhumane, some by adding this or that become traps that pas the standards. The US has fullfilled it's agreement with the EU with our testing as is. It also has found favor with state agencies and the general public. The "act" to explore and test in itself is seen as a positive.
Not inhumane by default at all, becuase if we moved the scores around we could get more to pass standards or raise higher and more not passing standards. Again they state recommendations and guidlines, many times in the litature.
Finally one more:who stated the 1.5 as inhumane? No one period. It didn't meet the criteria for the BMP's doesn't make it inhumane at all. Those are your words not anyone else's. Any trap that didn't pass and there are some for coyotes that didn't as well, doesn't make any of them in humane just means they didn't pass the standards set forth. There isn't a black ball list of traps.
Canada standards are different than the US can't compair the two and draw any conclusions. If "your" state tries to make changes then it is up to you and your trappers orgs to see to it they don't happen, always the way it worked before the BMP's correct? Anyone can bring up legislation and ballot votes it is up to the majority.
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