New Double Long Springs

[kelly]

TC39;

I will say that wire spring levers with their outward flexibility will lock up farther on jaws than do the rigid, stamped levers, plus throw very little dirt when closing.

Steve;

Liked your article in a recent FFG magazine. I see lots of the same type locations here in Iowa, but our coyotes are crap so I don't bother setting any traps for them.

[trappnman]

kelly-

never comes across a double longspring where the coyote popped a spring off like with coils nor have I ever seen a completely destroyed w/springs popped off/jaws popped out dls either,

I started coyote trapping with unmodifed #3 Victor double longsprings-

what you describe was the noem

[monttrap04]

Here is how mine are set-up







IL/OL, PIT Pan, Smooth Rod Baseplate, Short Machine Chain, Multiple swivels, Homemade Chestnut Ring

[kelly]

Feb 17, 2011 11:27:56 GMT -6 trappnman said:

kelly-

never comes across a double longspring where the coyote popped a spring off like with coils nor have I ever seen a completely destroyed w/springs popped off/jaws popped out dls either,

I started coyote trapping with unmodifed #3 Victor double longsprings-

what you describe was the noem

Humm Steve;

So the coyote actually popped the jaws out on 3 dls?

Always have bent the jaw tip ends(we are talking the newer style stamped/sheared jaws) upward so they were nearly impossible to pop out when trap was in the closed position.

That said, I do have several of the old Victor 3 dls w/ cast jaws and can see where those could easily pop out as there is very little holding them in place to begin with.

Will definitely say that Midwest coyotes are quite a bit larger on average than those in the Western states and they seem to impart more stress/damaged on traps. The coyotes I caught in N. Wisconsin in deep snow sets were very rough on coils with very few problems from DLS traps.

[Jason Dufresne]

I love it when these type of posts happen.

Here's another way to get pan tension on the Doubles...

Weld two nuts to the frame...
Weld the tabs closed on the largest PIT pan Mr. Medvetz offers, and drill new holes...

Wish I had 200 of these Kelly...


Or how many feet will this dogless one throw?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman couldn't agree more with time saved at a set! It isn't about the time for me it is about the efficiency of the TRAP!

Thin jaws and toe catches mean more cutting to the toes better chance for escape over TIME.

A trap is a tool but there are better designs in a given tool in a tool box than others. I could have a 8" pry bar or a 18" pry bar the longer one is going to give me more leverage and be more efficient if I'm pulling nails all day. I don't see it any different, than maximizing my efforts catching coyotes.

I don't want the entire area inside the jaws as a kill area, it serves me little purpose doing so!

It allows for less than ideal catches by making everything out to the jaws a firing point.

I want full foot commitment inside the jaws or as much as possible before the trap fires, that way I end up with better holds. Glen Sterling made the OG specials at HIS request with a much larger pan, he noticed in His use and the few I had that the toe catches rose considerably with having basically the entire area inside the jaws a kill area, Not having total commitment is why in his opinion and mine. WE know as we increase kill area size pan tension drops off. To me not a good occurance.

The entire point of a well built coyote trap is to have as much foot in side before the trap fires as possible, while still maintaining no extra dead space inside the jaws,other wise No point in building a coyote trap with a well centered pan if all one wants is to make the entire area a kill area correct? Just over size the pans and be done IMO. No need for screen then.

Packing inside the jaws firmly does a few things, it keeps the covering in place thru wind and rain, it allows a firm place for the foot which reduces digging at times, and by adding simple guiding it makes the best place for the foot the pan without crowding them near as much as smaller traps.

My guiding is to either get them to step over the loose jaw area or using the wind+ foot guiding get them to work on a 45 into the set which if you look closely at the traps I use maximizes the foot placement inside the jaws and on the pan. NO need for screens is needed, I don't have paw tracks inside the patterns of these traps with no catches, guiding, pan being the best place to step ensures this. I can't remember the last time I had a coyote track inside the jaws with no coyote. With the majority of the paw print sitting inside and no firing of the trap.

Set construction sure does play a roll NO Doubt, but using larger traps with a more centered pan and less forced foot placement I contend does is important as well, my point of maximizing efficiency is what I'm talking about. The larger the zone to that coyote or cat the better in reason of course, we aren't talking feet but inches here. Natrual body and foot movment far better than choking down that movement. Easy or hard to understand my point?

With a smaller offset in a LS you will never achieve 100% lock up of the springs, they will ride as high as the foot inside will allow them too. The offset in a sterling is what allows the levers to actually lock up you can see it and hear the click when you crack them open to remove the coyote. It is built into the design of the jaws and levers, you can see it on the hock catch as well, this would not be possible in many other traps on the market.

The jakes shine by having good lifting power and the pad compound is stiff enough to grab hold and cause little movement of the padding, in encapsulates the foot by having that larger offset under the padding. NO rolling and little movement period. The pan by design is the lowest place of the entire mechanism, how many people or coyotes don't put full body weight in a low depression? The jaw height and the pan being the lowest point of contact makes them work well, these traps where well thought out and designed. Plus adding to it they can be run with pads or without covering many situations and areas. The offset not using the pads is the proper size, plus the bar on top adds to a thicker jaw and the pads are quality.

The 3n's have always been known as a cast jaw having some flex to them, they are a thinner casts and on longer chains they have taking a beating, not all the jaw closing is from dry firing.

For the record I have had 2 sterlings in this shape both on concrete hard ground in many years of use and catches, I can atrribute it to using longer chains but I have a need for longer chains as well, so 2 out of many years of use I can live with it and neither coyote upon examination had a chance to get out, speaks to the attibutes of the traps. A fix would be to pin the bolts down with a top bracket, but cost versus the rare occurance this happens not worth it I'm sure. I have cut down on trap repair even with the bridgers by making changes but it all comes back to chain length and soils.

The coils a different design but a design through the years to be more efficant overall versus LS traps. Considering all factors, again IMO and what I have seen through the years. I have used many different traps that are considered coyote traps and have weeded through many of them and have gotten down to what I consider to be the most efficant on the market.

Use what you feel confidant in but, the LS is being used less and less for good reasons as technology continues on in the trap market.

Nice work on the traps but I wouldn't want that much pan!!!!!! Your looking at what 1/2" between the jaw and pan edge? That looks olike the over sized pans OG wanted on the sterlings for awhile.

Each to their own, I can see you put alot of work into those relics LOL.

[kelly]

If a coyote is standing mostly on the jaws with part of their foot on an enlarged pan, like the wire screen method or like Jason's dogless version above, it should be impossible for that trap to fire(jaws don't move from weight of coyote), unless one has the pan hair triggered(short throw) or with no tension.

As long as a coyotes foot is inside the jaws(except that dead spot area over the dog) with a wire screen pan cover and double longsprings the trap will fire with a solid above pad catch. What's wrong with a larger "kill area"?

The reason M-600's lock up so well has more to do with the way Glenn designed the jaws and some to do with the outward flexibility of wire spring levers than the size off the offset or thicker cast jaw.

The lock up of an factory offset 3 Victor dls is far greater than that of the regular jaw version because except for the offset they are the exact same jaws. So on DLS with the factory offset jaw, including 3-N's the spring will lock up farther even with a coyotes foot in it.

Yes, the 3-N cast jaw is somewhat flexible but nowhere near as bad as some seem to think. That said, if I had to choose between 3-N's cast jaw and 3-OS's steel jaw with a #9 wire laminated to it, I'd take the latter for strength every time, virtually eliminating any flexibility of the jaws.

TC39;

What scenario do you think happened for you to catch only 2 toes in that Sterling(where the coyote popped the spring)? You were less than a 1/2 inch from grabbing hair.

Many of the things you said in your last post are basically the same things that I've been saying with double longsprings. Just boils down to semantics and individualism.

All I've tried to show here on this particular thread is that one does not have to throw away their double longsprings because some say they are outdated and won't work effectively for Coyotes. Yes, some of them are outdated but not the 3-N and 3-OS. Actually, the Victor 4-OS(very few made) w/#9 wire lams and good chain/swivels would be my ideal coyote trap. Wow, just think of the "kill area" of that trap with wire screen pan covers and a dogless pan. :)Jason-get to work on this, will you! Oops, forgot-that is the trap you have pictured above.

I dare say that the enlarged pan on coils and toe catches has more to do with the levers throwing/moving the foot upwards than the size of the pan. Regarding Craig's feelings about his bigger paned Sterling's and toe catches, I've not heard this theory previously until you just mentioned it, but then it has been quite a few years since Craig and I have talked coyotes. That said, if Craig thinks that is the reason then I defer to him. As far as I'm concerned there is no one with greater knowledge and experience with coyotes than that of Craig O'Gorman.

[jax]

jason. you got any pics of a critters foot in the one with th 4 inch pan?

[trappincoyotes39]

What happened with the sterling? I didn't keep my notches filed like I should have waxed and not keeping them crisp lowers the pan tension by quite a little. I check the reason on the few toe catches I have mostly pan tension related, but the trap grabs and holds onto a very high% of them!

Your not getting the springs to the top end with such a small offset on a 3N not on a pad catch.

The sterlings go all the way up a very high % of the time and lock.

I 'm not saying throw away the LS just saying better built mouse traps out there IMO.

No the enlarged pans on the sterlings kept the levers more out of it because of the large pan and the notches cut into them for the springs. Again on a coil spring the amount of travel inside the jaws is minimal.

If I have a pan with 3 lbs of tension and I make it further away from the fulcrum does pan tension go down? Yes it does and the further away you get the less the pan tension you have. UNless your changing the design of the fulcrum like the PIT pans do!

WE will leave at I'm a coil spring fan and your on the LS bandwagon been a good discussion and enlighting to sat the least! Good trappin to you Kelly! Catch some of them worthless Iowa coyotes they need to be caught!

[longrangekilla]

I have been looking for some no.3 vics that are not junk and they are getting harder to come by. I bought 2 dozen at our district fall get together a couple of years ago that had one spring removed. I use them at bridges for mink and coon. They kill mink and rats and hold coon real well. I have had a couple stolen and lost a couple more. I would like to set up some nice ones for otter. I run a lot of sleepy creek no.2 dls and am less than happy with the speed and strength of the springs. The same goes for the 1.5 longsprings.

[trappnman]

kelly- yes, they were the old style cast models, and had zero modifications done to them- I didn't have a clue, they were dad's beaver traps from the 50s.

thanks for the kind words on the article

[Jason Dufresne]

Feb 17, 2011 16:15:47 GMT -6 jax said:

jason. you got any pics of a critters foot in the one with th 4 inch pan?

Jax-
I made this prototype and sent it out west to Marty Zimmer to test out. Not sure if he got out much to test it. My thoughts were to make a great exposed set cat trap, dogless with pan tension.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Use what you feel confidant in but, the LS is being used less and less for good reasons as technology continues on in the trap market.

Not true everywhere. I know several top cat trappers that have gone back to LS's. But we aren't making the same kind of sets that you do.

I haven't made 10 dirtholes in 10 years.

[Zagman]

Joel

Knowing you guys use the exposed pan sets, I see the value in a longspring for cats without the need to compensate for the springs coming up like on a coilspring. With the longspring, lots of room in there to fill up with "pan", whether shingle, expanded pan, etc.

I am curious what you think of Jason's trap with the full pan and whether you see it as an asset or as the potential for more toe catches.

With traps covered in dirt, one never knows exactly where that foot will end up.

But, on exposed pan cat sets and the precision with which one can guide a cat in the trap, do cats typically "aim for the center" of your offering?

On a side note, I'd like to get about 100 #2 double longs made up with pans like that for mink!

Zagman

[kelly]

Feb 18, 2011 12:19:31 GMT -6 Zagman said:

On a side note, I'd like to get about 100 #2 double longs made up with pans like that for mink!

Zagman

;D

Shhsssssssss! Get in line, Zagman. I'm first on Jason's list!

Jason, Can I tell them, can I tell them!

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Zag I think that pan in the pic is a skosh large but I'd set it. I put big pans (3.5 inch) on a bunch of #3 longs.

The late Texas Wolfer made them for me. Great guy, I have the hat he sent me in a place of honor on my workbench.

What I do is dip the trap in hot rosined wax and then pull it out and sprinkle some sifted sand/DG on the pan. Then I dip it again and pull it up being very careful to keep the pan level until the wax sets.

Once it dries it looks perfect for a cat to step on. Looks a bit wet from the wax but I just throw a little dust on it and shake it off.

Just block it in real good on a trail set and wah lah.

The coils tend to sink in the mud when the ground gets wet and freezes, almost need wax paper underneath in some conditions. LS's not so much. Also you can use the big pans because the springs come up outside the jaws instead of from inside.

I like em center swiveled and jaw lams if the stamped out jaws, 3n's don't need anything. I do like to put a #5 Bridger PIT pan on the 3n's, does what the ones Sam Donaldson made without brazing another pan on top.

Another thing that I really like about LS's is how you can wrap a drag up in them for transport, never found a way to tie up a coilspring very well.

Oh yeah when you show a cat where to put his foot he'll usually do it and he lands in the middle if you block it up right.

Fair amount of coyotes fall for it as well.

The most important thing on exposed pans is to have a rock steady pan. They will put their foot on it and test it sometimes. PIT's are real good.

[JWarren]

if I set that big pan #3 or #4 the toe catches would skyrocket because its large enough for a cat to take 2 steps, the 2 step will put the first foot down right on the very edge of the kill area, then you got a toe catch with 1-2lbs of steel 15 inches long to tangle in the sticks,

I think zimmer went to big longsprings this year, he has or had several videos of cats caught by the toes in them on his website

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I don't like number 4's for cats for that exact reason. I've had several instances when I used to cover when cats would take two steps. Never seen it on a #3. I would buy #2 sleepy creeks but like several have said previously springs are mush.

The big pans aren't necessary, there have probably been ten thousand cats caught on stock pans. A cat doesn;t need a garbage can lid to step on.

[trappincoyotes39]

A cat doesn;t need a garbage can lid to step on.

Exactly!!!!!

[JWarren]

I've had the 2 step toe catch in as small as #2 bridger's uncovered, stock pan