New Double Long Springs

[kelly]

Feb 15, 2011 19:54:55 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

The 3 and 3N was also responsable as the trap that caused many peg legs due to the fact of end spring hook up, poor swiveling. The thing with a #3 sized LS trap is the jaw spread isn't close to a 3 coilspring and to me offers NO advantage to efficancty for coyote or cat trapping.

Believe the peg leg scenario you mentioned is not from the trap used but rather the amount of time the coyote was in the trap. Many old time trappers and those of the 1950-70's still checked their traps once weekly-sometimes longer. I've seen many coyotes melted into the soil because of the time they were in the trap. I dare say the same would happen with coils if left in the trap for a week or more.

Yes, coils have improved tremendously ever since Glen Sterling came out with the MJ-600 back in the late 1970's. And yes, i used some of the first ones Glen made and they caught fur.

There is a difference between jaw spread and kill area between coils and long springs. Even with a smaller jaw spread of 5.75" in the case of the 3 dls it is a complete kill area because the springs are outside of the base frame. Compare that to a 3 coil of 6" where the spring levers and angled jaw actually force the foot out wards ending up in toe catches. So I believe the kill area on 3 coils is much less than that of the 3 dls. Now couple that with the trap door effect of full notch and dls where there is nearly 3/4" of area beneath pan to base one gets very good catches all the time. This distance on the dogless coils is way less than half inch.

Agree, each to their own but chamacat was asking about double longsprings and their use by trappers here.

[chamacat]

Yep..Kelly if you could please explain your commit..I think it's about the pan "Trap door effect" that is tied into "Full Notch"...I have read and read this and can't get it in my head ..what you are saying about the modification on the DLS..I understand the travel distance on the pan tho..

It looks like to me the only curent manufactures of DLS..Are sleepy creek and bridger..Am I missing any?,,,Carl

[trappincoyotes39]

Sorry Kelly could not diasgree more. The kill area eqautes to pan size and position inside of the jaws reguardless. The area increases as you increase the size or sq inches inside of the frame, meaning more room for the foot. Pan tension means alot IMO as well, I run sterlings, mod bridgers 3's and Jakes and the toe catches you speak of are very rare indeed. It isn't about how much pan travel one has, it is about jaw size, pan size and tension. IMO of course.

With pan tension who needs the trap door effect? They are comitting enough weight to fire the trap and that all the room you speak of under the pan is not needed, couple that with a good jaw design and toe catches aren't a worry with coil spring traps.

Using the traps I do and my set techniques very rare to find an empty sprung trap or do I notice any so called paw lifting of these traps. IN theory sounds good as the springs ride up on an angle but in the the real world just doesn't happen. They are balanced and the foot has no where to go. My toe catches are related to pan tension, and I have seen alot less toe catching as I increased pan tension through the years. Reguardless of room under the pan.

Peg legs also had alot to do with the poor design of the trap and swiveling I run 3 day checks and without good swiveling those coyotes would be alot worse off period. Even in the best coil spring. That has been a technology thing and LS benefit from a bottom center location point as well, instead of at the end of the springs like the old 3's and 3N's came equipped.

Here are the traps you question I get no more to caught critters than when I used LS traps back in the 80's and early 90's.

[trappnman]

Mike- I find it interesting, that you have good success with the trap/slide starting on dry land, and get a consistent drown. I find just the opposite ws true for me- that if I allowed the coon to start on land, I would have a fair % that never got into the water.

perhaps the key is "cable hanging over the bank"? does that imply a drop to the water?

when I tried it, I had gradual banks.

I try to have my top stake as far out as possible, and still allow the trap to be bedded (allow a bit extra, as even with drowning, they will change the setup and if set to the limit to begin with, you often needed to replace the stakes to get trap in right position) and then I slide the lock as far down into the water as possible. my feeling being that once caught, that first "jump" puts them a little further down, and then there is no return

[trappnman]

the big advantage of dls, is that both springs must be completely depressed to allow the jaws to open.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I set a sterling the other day as it was the last trap I had. Exposed set, came back, trap was stretched clear back through the tree with hair in jaws indicating full paw catch. Tracks in dirt definitely a cat.

I'll be grinding the offsets down this summer. Cats feet are a bit slippery.

I think longsprings with PIT pans are the best for exposed cat sets. I think they are the best for covered coyote sets as well.

I like the Monty dogless for covered cat sets.

[thunderbolt]

I've lost 2 cats the last 2 years, both in MB 650s. Same as Bushrod described. And it was on 24 hour checks. I have gotten rid of all my MB 650s.

[trappincoyotes39]

First cats aren't coyotes, their feet "gel" more than a coyotes. Thing is to use pan tension and even cats will be held well. I have caught cats in Coyote Cuffs these traps have the wideest offset of any trap I know manufactured. All has to do with pan tension. Toe caught cats can be a problem fully padded though I have never had them pull free, cats don't fight a trap near like a coyote. If I was 100% cat trapping I would use a smaller offset but still have an offset. I have caught cats in many of the high end coilsprings pan tension is needed and won't effect cats getting caught. Coons I do loose a few because of their tapered paws but not to many again pan tension to me means good solid holds, the toe catches I get are mainly caused by lack of pan tension. If I thought these traps didn't perform very well I wouldn't use them.

Each to his own but I like the efficantcy of coilsprings.







Back footed smaller cat in a sterling held well


Another in a sterling

[kelly]

Feb 16, 2011 7:37:06 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Sorry Kelly could not diasgree more. The kill area eqautes to pan size and position inside of the jaws reguardless. The area increases as you increase the size or sq inches inside of the frame, meaning more room for the foot. Pan tension means alot IMO as well, I run sterlings, mod bridgers 3's and Jakes and the toe catches you speak of are very rare indeed. It isn't about how much pan travel one has, it is about jaw size, pan size and tension. IMO of course.

With pan tension who needs the trap door effect? They are comitting enough weight to fire the trap and that all the room you speak of under the pan is not needed, couple that with a good jaw design and toe catches aren't a worry with coil spring traps.

Using the traps I do and my set techniques very rare to find an empty sprung trap or do I notice any so called paw lifting of these traps. IN theory sounds good as the springs ride up on an angle but in the the real world just doesn't happen. They are balanced and the foot has no where to go. My toe catches are related to pan tension, and I have seen alot less toe catching as I increased pan tension through the years. Reguardless of room under the pan.

Peg legs also had alot to do with the poor design of the trap and swiveling I run 3 day checks and without good swiveling those coyotes would be alot worse off period. Even in the best coil spring. That has been a technology thing and LS benefit from a bottom center location point as well, instead of at the end of the springs like the old 3's and 3N's came equipped.

Here are the traps you question I get no more to caught critters than when I used LS traps back in the 80's and early 90's.

Pictures 2 & 5, from the top to bottom being 5, show perfectly the actual effective "Kill area" of coilsprings that I am talking about. The area between the jaws and pan and in between the spring levers when closed is your effective kill area, not the total area inside the jaws when set/open. If you measure distance from jaws to pan-then spring lever to spring lever on coils you will find that area is less than on a #3 double longspring because their springs are on the outside so the total area inside the jaws is the efective kill area on double longsprings.

Because of the way the foot is placed/located on an angle in pictures 2 & 5 results from the spring levers pushing the foot that way upon closure. Just another 1/2 more towards the jaw post/outside of pan the resulting catch would be nowhere near as good.

Now I don't know what you are using for pan covers and agree that the size of the pan has an effect on kill area. That said, with wire srceen pan covers and 3 dls one has an effective kill area/pan size of everything inside the jaws(except the dog dad spot). Not so on larger jaw spread coils, even if wire screen pan covers are used the spring levers will throw/move the foot when closing. Furthermore, on 4 coiled traps with wire screen pan covers there is not enough room for a coyote to be stepping just inside the jaws and not fully touching the pan to fire the trap because of the very limited distance underneath the pan. With double longsprings and their larger space underneath pan and less pan tension the coyotes steps anywhere inside the jaws(except the dog dead spot) and the trap will fire.

Other than the Miles Trigger configuration to a hump style longspring the only way to add more tension is bending dog end upward and setting full notch. The farther the pan drops before releasing the dog the farther the foot is into the trap.

Mind you I was taught/learned with 3-N's and then later used the poor mans version the 3-OS but still the big cast swivels and kinkless chain. The only times I noticed swiveling problems were on the Sterlings when the chain would hook up on the bolts that held on the coils and then they would get chain wrapped around foot. And I've seen where the chain gets wrapped around the end of spring lever-coyotes gives a big lunge and the lever depresses-bingo the coyote is gone. Neither of these two scenarios did I ever see with a properly swiveled double longspring.

Remember, I'm not saying your methods are wrong-just explaining why/my beliefs to the efficency of double longsprings. Also, agree with you that the standard stamped jaw/non offset double longsprings with twist link chain are leg choppers-not so the case with the 3-N and 3-OS.

[kelly]

Feb 16, 2011 6:47:36 GMT -6 chamacat said:

Yep..Kelly if you could please explain your commit..I think it's about the pan "Trap door effect" that is tied into "Full Notch"...I have read and read this and can't get it in my head ..what you are saying about the modification on the DLS..I understand the travel distance on the pan tho..

It looks like to me the only curent manufactures of DLS..Are sleepy creek and bridger..Am I missing any?,,,Carl

As far as larger double longspring sizes goes, those are the only two manufactures of new traps. That said, one can find lots of really good Victor 3-N's and 3-OS with many, many years of life left in them for a lot less money than buying new. I already told you of two sources and I know there are more. Remember a 40 year old longspring will be many times stronger than the same 40 year old coil, if both have original factory springs.

In regards to the trap door effect I've sort of answered some of it in my response above. But to give you the full understanding it has a lot to do with the covering of dirt over trap/trap bed too. I feel that DLS can handle much more dirt covering than coils and I use this extra dirt covering to help create the trap door effect. Now mind you the dirt is firmly packed everywhere outside of the jaws and level with them over the entire pattern/dug up area. Then 3/4" to 1" of dirt is sifted over entire pattern of which the trap is part of so when the coyote is approaching the trap it is already walking in loose soil so it will not be alarmed when it finds the trap door. Every step has been made with full weight, and the distance the pan travels from full notch to releasing the dog is hidden beneath this loose dirt, thus they don't know what is happening underneath their feet-sort of like the trap door effect.

Finally, on a slightly different subject, my dog is always facing away/180 degrees to my dirthole or bait/lure in the case of flat sets. Always some sort of clod or small rock is placed directly over the dog so after final sifting there is a noticeable hump/obstruction for the animal to step over and then directly on the pan and in the direction that the pan is easily fired because that is the natural downward movement of the pan anyway. And I had way less chewed dogs because the dog now is underneath their leg, not on top and in plain view/access when the dog is pointed toward the dirthole, or even to the side.

Again, these are my opinions/how I was taught and does not in anyway mean or imply that other methods or traps do not work. Just feel that double longsprings for coyote taking get a bad wrap these days. If I ever relocate to an area where there are lots of good coyotes(without mange is my minimum definition of good) The nearly 200 3-N's I own will be immediately put into use again. I could have sold these many times over but am saving them for just that scenario, hopefully someday in not to distant future.

[trappincoyotes39]

sterling chains wrapped on the bolts? How so? The link glen uses will not fit around the bolts at all.

Another 1/2" and the coyote wouldn't have been able to make the trap fire. The beauty of a trap with a centered and correct sized pan not too small and not to big.

Second with a sterling which locks up 100% most of the time one lever being pushed down will not let anything go period. Wrapping around the lever and the coyote pulling? serious? That would take a perfect angle and lunge where the twist link would have to sit perfectly on the lever while he makes his pull away from the stake or the chain is just going to slide across the lever.Adding no force in which to compress the spring. 1 in a million at best.

Look at 3ns they have an 1" or less from the side of the pan to the jaw post how many coyotes feet are wider than 1"? Too much pan for that small jaw spread IMO. No bigger than most 1.75 coilsprings as far as jaw area goes. The 3n is a guide very heavy type coyote trap again IMO. Also look at 3N's I still have some and will use on fox complaints but not for coyotes. How many still have the standard offset yet? Most are bent in and that small of an offset serves little purpose 1/16th or so is all mine measure, not allowing the springs to lock up because the OS is just to darn small.

Just more area in a sqaure than a circle. When you measure the side to side distance between a #3 or 3N and a jake or bridger or sterling you will see there is more room at the top of the CS traps than the 3n or #3 victor.

They have to hit the pan to make the trap work not the levers. That is why a perfectly centered pan is ideal. In order for your theory to hold true the majority of their foot would have to be on the longer part of the lever, as the further you move in the less the actual levers move up. So no toe catching going on becuase of the trap design that I have ever seen.

Use what you feel is the best and for your methods, but give me a good CS over any LS trap for coyotes and cats any day.


Here look at this one real close the coyote beat on this trap on concrete hard ground popped the spring off toe caught and was still there waiting and held solid because the other lever on the sterling was 100% locked up.




Next look at the differance between a #3 Victor LS and a jake which is a 5.5" jaw spread mind you smaller yet than a #3 Bridger CS. Notice the differance in area inside the jaws.

side by side one can see the kill area differance



Layover view between the 2 showing more room inside the jaws for the coyotes foot. With minor guiding and the pan being the low spot little chance for the coyote to have his paw half on the pan and frame compaired to the smaller #3 LS. The pan on the jake is in great psotion to afford the max amount of foot between the jaws and not on them.

[trappincoyotes39]

I also don't see the more dirt issue either? You have more room for the pan to drop but you only have so much jaw to come out of the ground. The taller the jaw and more power the more dirt one can add, why? You bedding the trap deeper because you have more jaw to grab onto the foot.

I use a good dirt covering becusase of our open areas and winds we have out this way. Little dirt over your traps and your comming back in a few days to a trap that is exsposed. I can do 3/4" or so compacted on the CS traps because of the jaw size, pan tension and power to bring them up through quickly. I don't need to have the trap door when I use pan tension and a crisp notch and the pan being the lowest spot on the pattern.

I will give it you though you LS guys are dyed in the wool for sure! Happy Trapping.

[trappnman]

how many coyotes feet are wider than 1"?

a lot- most are double that

[trappnman]

TC, pictures of feet in traps mean nothing either way-

if they did, then the 100s of pictures i've shown of coyotes in 1.75 would say it all.

[trappincoyotes39]

Exactly my point tman.................

[trappincoyotes39]

Pictures of feet do mean something, and they do with 1.75's they are like a #3 LS meaning they will hold a pad catch well, the issue always has been the forcing needed to get those great holds is more than with larger traps. The fact that the foot needs to be in a better place for a good hold. The kill area is reduced, the pans are too large for the jaw dimensions. Hence the need for more guiding with smaller traps for coyotes.

The efficantcy goes down that is why a larger trap for long legged critters IMO is better. More sq area inside combined with a pan that fits the dimensions well will always lead to more efficantcy as more of the foot has to be inside the jaws to make the trap fire, pan tension just adds to it. All in my opinion of course!

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I bought some Jakes and they are a work of art. However I've only set them once and never caught anything in them. Just not a trap that I want to grab when I walk up a hill. I figure they are a good lion trap, and maybe small bears. lol!!

[trappnman]

they hold toe catches just as well- i've posted many pics showing that as well-

a trap is a tool- nothing more.

for your above arguement btw- I can say you want the trap more efficeint- use screens.

you can say less guidng is quicker, and thats true, as is doing less bedding- but the bottomline is the same

but lets be real- way, way too much is made of saving a few secs on a set-

[kelly]

As I stated above in one of my posts when comparing square inches inside of jaws when trap is in the set position Coils like the Sterling, 3 Bridger, etc do have more square inches but they are not effective square inches when trap closes because the levers take away Plus couple that with dirt inside jaws, when not using wire screen pans covers, one has reduced the"kill area" considerably. With dirt inside jaws and packed like I see many do the effective kill area is totally the pan size and nothing more. If the coyotes foot is mostly on the pan it will fire but if it is mostly not on the pan yet still inside jaws but on the dirt(inside jaws) they can not fire the trap.

With wire screen pan cover and 3 dls my effective kill area is everything inside the jaws, except dead spot over dog. Essentially nearly 85% of the inside square inches/5.75" jaw spread. With coils like the 3 Montgomery/Montana and dirt inside jaws from the use of some sort of flexible pan cover or none at all, the kill area is reduced to just slightly larger than the pan size. Essentially about only 50% of the inside square inches/6" jaw spread. I dare say one needs to pinpoint the coyote foot placement more so with coils than longspring. It all boils down to the springs being on the outside of jaws with double longsprings and them being on the inside with coils.

So that is what a Jake trap looks like? Thank you for posting those pictures-have never seen one before-always knew JC did great work with all his products so expected the same with his trap.

Really, in the scheme of things, set constructions plays a more important role in getting the coyotes foot on the "kill area" much more so than what type of trap one uses. Coyotes have been caught/held in everything from #11 dls(4" jaw spread) to 1.75 coils(5.25" jaw spread) and up to #4 Jumps/ #44 DUS(7.5" jaw spread) and larger.

Always thought the beauty of longsprings was their instant "lock up" feature! Furthermore have never comes across a double longspring where the coyote popped a spring off like with coils nor have I ever seen a completely destroyed w/springs popped off/jaws popped out dls either, but have seen lots of coils look that way. Must admit though that since the advent of Glen Sterling's MJ-600 other trap companies had to step up with quality coilspring traps in order to stay in the game/market.

Also, agree with you that many 3-N's look like they have lost their offset/bowed in the middle jaws, which comes from the trap being fired too many times without a coyote foot in it. If one must fire these traps then use a broom handle or similar piece of wood which will prevent the offset from closing. Or, just use the trap and catch some coyotes in them and the offset will gradually go back to normal shape. Have always preferred the smaller offset of 3-N's anyway because they hold coon and other smaller footed animals very well that have the gall to step into my coyote sets.

Thank you 39 for all the pictures you've posted. Love to see all of the different ways a coyote gets caught and wonder, "Just how did that happen?" like the toe caught one in the Sterling w/popped spring or the one in a Sterling with ankle joint caught on one side and toes out the other side of jaws. I've had some weird catches over the years but those pictures were all before Digital cameras(yes, it has been awhile since I caught any coyotes) and are mostly slides with some photos. Guess I hear one can take them to Wal-Mart and they will scan the slides/photos and put on a CD, is that correct?

[monttrap04]

Great discussion guys!

Bushrod, care to elaborate on why you referenced those traps as your preferences for specific setting situations?