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Post by castorjunkie on Jun 21, 2010 21:55:06 GMT -6
Screens doesn't make the entire are inside the jaws a panif not for increased kill area, and just a pan cover, why make them much bigger than then pan? hmmm and here i thought that steel screen pan covers was meant for 2 purposes... 1 increase kill area 2 keep dirt out from under the pan......
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Post by ChrisM on Jun 22, 2010 21:32:36 GMT -6
Yes it increases the "kill area." But it doesnt extend the pan out to the jaws. If it did so you would see lots of snapped traps and toe catches. This is the exact reason G. Sterling was opposed to O'Gorman selling the Sterling traps with the special larger pans. They created a situation where a coyote could fire the trap while its foot was partially on the jaw.
I posted this several years ago but will repost it here.
I use only aluminum screen, cut 5.5 by 7 inches. This will work on everything from #2's to 4's.
I boil them for just a few minutes on the stove with a bit of baking soda. If working in very fine soils, like the Nebraska Sand Hills I will wax them. This is only to prevent the soil from running thru. Not to add stiffness.
To install, lay it in place on the unset trap. Slide it a bit too far towards the eye of the dog. Then hold in place and pull back towards you while forcing the notch in pan thru the screen. Now pull it some more to put a short rip in the screen where the dog meets the notch. This rip will help it to lay flat. With a little practice, you will be have the screen centered on the trap when your done.
Lay the loose jaw down on the screen. If there is a bubble over the pan, slide your thumb under the pan and with your other hand, form fit the screen to the pan by pushing down on the screen around the edges of the pan. The screen does not have to be completly flat on the pan.
After I cut my screens I pull them over the counter top to eliminate the curve or memory . This makes them (for me) easier to store and transport them.
If you leave the memory in your screens you can install the screens upside down, so to speak with the curved up ends pointing up. This will go along ways towards eliminatint the bubble since the memory of the screen itseilf will be pushing the screen against the pan.
Important You have to cut your screens large enough to be held in place by the jaws. Also, do not cut a slit in the end so that you can slide the screen in after setting the trap. You need to install the screen before laying the trap in the bed.
BTW,My screens dont lay completely flat against the pan I dont worry about it one bit. . I have never seen where it cost me a critter.
Now the important question.....Does the use of screen really increase the pan or "kill area" of the trap?
Yes, up to a point. BUT, I think the whole thing about the screen having a bigger kill area has been overstated and exaggerated. It does not turn the entire area inside the jaws into a pan .
I cut the screens large enough so that they lay under both jaws. So the "angle" of the screen is from the edge of the pan to the bottom of the jaw. If you can picture a cross section of a trap bedded and covered with dirt, with a screen installed as I described, you will see that the screen and pan actually form sort of a flat topped tee-pee (for lack of a better description) sloping down to the bottom of the inside of the jaws.
When using something like a underall, trappers cap or pan covers such as baggies or waxed paper that wont support the dirt's weight, you have a void only under the pan, with the entire area between the pan and the jaw filled/packed with dirt. On large traps, this creates a situation where the animal can stand inside the jaws but with his foot only partly on the pan. The packed dirt can and will support the animals weight prevention the trap from being tripped. (The first time I ever used the "underalls" I missed five coyotes on the first check. Each had a foot clearly inside the jaws but only partially on the pan. This was with #3 traps)
Contrast this with the sloping void created by the screen. A foot partially on the pan will not be supported by firm dirt underneath and will fire the trap. But due to the sloping of the screen/void you can see that out close to the jaws the dirt is deeper and in truth extends clear down to the bottom of the jaw, and will support the foot. This is a good thing, because we don't want animals springing the trap while a foot is on the jaw.
So while its not true that screens make the entire area inside the jaws a pan...it is true is that the use of screens on large traps gives a larger kill area that will eliminate most all of the tracks inside the jaws.
On my traps with 5.5 and 6 inch jaw spreads I have seen no advantage in using the stiffer steel screen. Remember the screen does not really serve as a larger pan. All the screen has to do is support the weight of the dirt, and thus create the larger void. However on the larger traps with 6.5 inch jaw spreads there may be some advantage with the steel.
The use of screen offers other advantages also. It supports the weight of the dirt after a rain. This is not a small thing as it prevents the dreaded donut and saves having to re-bed traps during non-freezing temps. This is really important in ADC trapping during spring and summer because I can leave my perfectly blended flat sets in place. It also allows moisture to pass thru and evaporate which helps with wet spots. Allowing the moisture to pass through is the reason I don’t like to wax my screens unless forced to by soil types.
I use the screen on everything (except Sterlings) from #2's on up. I agree that there are some advantages to a small pan on the smaller traps when used on coyotes. But I'm not so sure on fox sized critters. I think it all depends on the relationship between size of the target species foot and the distance between the edge of the pan and the jaws.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 23, 2010 8:27:56 GMT -6
good post chris.
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Post by Zagman on Jun 23, 2010 9:10:50 GMT -6
So, the million dollar question:
Is there a trap and/or trap pan configured correctly in that the pan is the right size out of the box? The pan is manufactured in a way that increasing the kill area is not needed and would prove ineffective even if you did increase it? Perhaps you would end up with a kill area TOO big, and possibly, incur the problems Chris alludes to above regarding toe catches.
Zagman
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Post by thebeav2 on Jun 23, 2010 9:32:45 GMT -6
You should probably get a hold of Clint Lockleer I think he has some experince with adding on over sized pans to his MB 750s.
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Post by rln on Jun 23, 2010 9:51:08 GMT -6
Beav, he uses CDR's for cat and coyote, with oversized pans also.
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Post by Zagman on Jun 23, 2010 10:36:26 GMT -6
My question was actually rhetorical in nature....
MZ
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jun 23, 2010 10:49:04 GMT -6
Zagman I thought the montgomery dogless 2 had the right sized or "trigger system" for that sized trap. Also think that's why I didn't like screens the first time I tried them. These guys taught me some things about screens last time this topic was up. Will definitely try them on some traps that have small pan "syndrome" haha.
Hey and thanks for introducing yourself and the kind words. would for sure have liked to converse and attend more but was quite a bit under the weather, literally.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 23, 2010 11:32:02 GMT -6
Good explanation givin for the area in which you work chis and on what trap types your using.
I guess I have used sterlings for many years and that trap has the ideal pan size for the jaw spread never seen a need for screen on them what so ever just as others who have used this trap. I would say also the #3 bridger with a PIT pan is very close in relation to a coyotes foot that I don't see a need for screen either and wouldn't work in the application of what you described either. The pan to loose jaw edge is something I have always guided anyhow and it takes care of that area as for the area between the pan sides and jaw post with a PIT pan would be very hard for a coyote with its foot size to step in that area and not set the trap off.
I also pack inside and outside the jaws firmly and in this soil I don't see the depression area as some other soils types, after a rain they look as they did when set unless very heav rains, I also cover with plenty of dirt.
So zags to answer the question at hand yes the sterling is that trap jaw to pan ratio, next comes the #3 bridger with always guarding the loose jaw and then time will tell with the jake trap I am going to experament with, another trap I don't think would see any benefit from screen either.
So I choose to use a different system to offset the screen advantage I guess. Then I don't need to mess with them. I thought on this after close examination of the sterling pan and how best to duplicate that with other traps.
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Post by rk660 on Jun 23, 2010 20:47:45 GMT -6
I learned to use alum screen from ChrisM some 20 years ago at one of our Nebrfurharversters conventions. Time and time again, I always come back to alum screen, used just as he describes. Simple to use once you get on to it, readily available, easy to cut, and effective.
If I recall, Chris showed it up close on one of the NTA vids put out 10-12 years ago, in detail. That would be a good visual reference source if needed.
One thing about alum screen, if you want to cut a sheetpile, watch for a paper cutter, the ones we all used in grade school. 18x18" board, with fence and little sqaures on the board for measuring. Plus that large knive that would cut 3 fingers off the ave 11 year old kid in one swipe. we all used them back in the day, and never saw a kid missing any fingers from one, LOL. But that was the stone age, when kids actually listened and respected their elders, LOL, and even did what told. "dont get your fingers under that blade, or they will be GONE" and you paid attention!.
That reminds me, somewhere, in last month, I saw a quote or message: Lets take the safety labels off everything, and let mother nature clean up the mess" sounded like a damn good idea to me! I do think the gene pool, could stand a little "refreshing" from time to time.
Anyway, you can find paper cutters darn cheap, set a stop and cut a kazillion pan covers in no time, all exactly the same. Steel screen with screw the blade up pretty fast, but doubt youll ever wear on out cutting alum screen.
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Post by kelly on Jun 27, 2010 21:10:23 GMT -6
Been using aluminum screen exactly as ChrisM describes ever since learning how to use them from Craig O'Gorman back in 1976/77(sorry can no longer remember the exact time). Also, been cutting them with the paper cutter since a year or two later, probably 1978 and my cutter is still like new with the same blade.
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