multiple packs calling at once

[joe]

a while back my brother and I were howling, we had three different groups of dogs howling back. I recognized an adult male challenge call, I responded with a challenge call of my own, and everything went quiet after that. we never seen anything come in, what do you think happened??

[richc]

Joe,
It is quite common for coyotes to come in silently when they hear a strange coyote in their territory. If the one that challenged you did not come in after he went silent, it could be that he was standing near the boundary line of his territory and was not willing to cross it. It is also possible that a coyote or coyotes did in fact approach your location but saw or smelled something they didn't like before you saw them.

[romans117]

I agree with rich. I used to use the red desert mouthpiece with the mega phone attachment but stopped after I started getting the reactions you describe. I believe I was blowing them out of the country along with the territory issue. I would go back to the area though and get deeper into where you heard the howls, wind permitting. I have done it routinely and it works. You know where there boundaries are for sure.

[joe]

it is quit possible that something did come in with out us seeing it. we were hunting in some extremely thick brush with out being able to get very high for a good vantage point. most of the brush was 3-4 foot high and the knob we were on was only about 10 foot above it. i thought it was odd that everything just shut up on us. i am just learning and really appreciate the information you have shared with me.

[edge]

**It is quite common for coyotes to come in silently when they hear a strange coyote in their territory. If the one that challenged you did not come in after he went silent, it could be that he was standing near the boundary line of his territory and was not willing to cross it. It is also possible that a coyote or coyotes did in fact approach your location but saw or smelled something they didn't like before you saw them. **

Dont know who you are,but you saved me some typing,thanks!!

Edge

[joe]

so romans117 is saying maybe we were calling to loud for the distance they were at. i was using the hot dog and my brother the double whammy both with the bells attached. i plan on going back in a couple weeks and will try calling with just the mouth piece and see if that helps.

[richc]

joe,
Tell us more please. Which state are you calling in? In relation to your above hidey hole, which way was the wind blowing?

[Rod17]

I am looking forward to hearing more about this. I have had the same reaction several times. Started howling (power howler by E.L.K.) had a bunch howling back at me, then went to a rabbit distress and nothing not even a bark, yip etc.

Randy

[richc]

Edge,
I am a grouchy old codger named Rich Cronk. Health problems have kept me close to home for awhile, but I am hoping that the gall bladder removal I had done a couple of weeks ago will help get me moving a little better pretty soon. I haven't seen Wiley E around here for awhile either. Maybe he has been eating too much, and just lounging around in that new home he built.

[richc]

joe,
I really doubt that you were howling too loud. I would leave that bell on your howler so it sounds like a real coyote. Don't howl too much. One lonesome sounding howl, or maybe two and then wait in silence for about three minutes. You would be wise to shy away from using the challenge barks right now. The coyotes you heard howling were family groups I think, and this means that there are some young of the year out there listening. Agressive types of coyote vocals may scare the youngsters just a little if you get my meaning. When you get ready to use your prey distress, blow bird distress or maybe hurt pup crys instead of the standard rabbit screams.

You spoke of calling brushy area. If your calling area has a lot of this thick cover, I think you would be wise to get your hands on an electronic caller. In that thick stuff, it is just too easy for coyote to circle down-wind of a man blowing mouth calls only. They get down-wind of you, get a whiff of human odor and then leave again. Placing an electronic caller cross-wind of your chosen hidey hole some fifty yards or more can be a big help in killing more of the coyotes that you call. If you don't have an electronic caller, you probably should consider placing your calling buddy some 200 yards or so down-wind of you when you are calling. Your buddy will end up shooting some coyotes that circle down-wind of you. I hope this helps you out a little bit.

[joe]

Well I live in centeral utah and the spot I am talking about is about 1 hour south of here. The only way I can discribe it is on a clock reference. I was facing west with the sun at my back and the wind blowing from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock. My brother was watching the down wind side. One small group howling back at 7 o'clock one at 11 o'clock and one far off at 2-3 o'clock. The wind wasn't hard just stiff so there wasn't any of that famous Utah swirling stuff going on. The challenge call was from the group at 11 o'clock. It was a real hair raising experience. The one that got in my blood even though we didn't get to drop the hammer on one that time. Rich C hope you get better soon and back out there. I just had a back operation a couple months ago and am just starting to get out. Thank you for the input. I will try all this info you have shared.

[dentra]

Joe, these are just some general statements and I hope they make sense.

When you howl, the farther the coyote are from you, the more likely they will respond vocally and the less likely they will come to the call. The closer you are to the coyote, when you howl, the more likely he'll come to the howl, but the less likely he'll respond vocally. If you get a vocal response that's close, you're going to kill a coyote. Experience is going to tell you what's close and what's far.

IMHO

[joe]

Ya that makes since. It's great to get such a response and any info I will try and hopefully help me have better success.

[lb]

Yeah, it's a good thing when you know what you are doing and what you expect to happen.

My personal attitude is that I "expect" those coyotes to become silent and approch the call, at least to where they can see where the sound came from, or smell whoever made the sound, from downwind. This is exactly why you are howling, in my view. To trade vocalizations with a coyote is much less productive, and (BTW) you need to use certain sounds, and know what they mean.

Also, multiple packs, calling at once may not have anything to do with your call, even if you started it. You may have just triggered a response that they were storing up and would have done it, (sooner or later) without your prompting?

Good hunting. LB

PS somebody doesn't know who Rich C is? Hey, hope you are on the mend, Amigo!

[Ridgerunner]

"Also, multiple packs, calling at once may not have anything to do with your call, even if you started it. You may have just triggered a response that they were storing up and would have done it, (sooner or later) without your prompting?"

lb ... very interesting ... Would I be correct in assuming that this scenario was the essence of a territorial dispute? Moreover, would it be likely that the real adult male challenge came from the group that "owned" the more desirable territory?

Don't know if these are dumb questions, as I am trying to learn about coyote vocalizations.

One final question ... Do you think that joe may have been better off to answer the real coyote challenge with a pup distress call?

joe, great thread ... Not second guessing you here, just was wondering how to proceed if this should happen on one of my hunts.

[lb]

RR, this is a phenomenon that I have personally observed in high population areas.

I have (also) had it happen (several times) by a single pack in response to a distress sound; after which, they came to the call.....usually predawn, or the crack of dawn. Silently.

Could be territorial, or a different reason? I would not bs you by claiming that I know exactly "why" coyotes do such things.

Actually, we don't need to know some "reasons" why they do things, we just need to know their behavior under specific circumstances.

Good hunting. LB

[joe]

After reading this great info I believe when I return I will find a new location about a half mile west and another one about a half mile east spreading out about a mile from the original spot and try calling more to the individual groups checking to find if perhaps I was on the boarder of their boundaries and see what kind of success I have. I really like the statement by LB I believe it was. Stating we don't need to know the reasons why they do things we just need to know the behavior why they do them.

[richc]

"Don't know if these are dumb questions, as I am trying to learn about coyote vocalizations."
---------------------------------
Ridgerunner,
Much as been said about coyote language, but no human knows for sure what the coyote is saying. We can tell by the tone or "inflection" in a coyote's voice that what we sometimes call a "challenge" means that a coyote is more than a little bit angry. If a howl sounds really lonesome or sad, I call it a "lonesome" howl. I will likely get some static when I tell you this next little secret. You can't always tell the sex of a coyote by the pitch of it's howl. When we howl coyotes to the gun, the most important thing is to sound like a strange coyote in the area. If you only learn two sounds on a howler, namely a lonesome sounding howl with no barks, and some pup squeals--------- You have the two main sounds you need for calling coyotes. Learn as much as you can about coyote habits, learn to play the wind and learn to be a good hunter.

[lb]

"One final question ... Do you think that joe may have been better off to answer the real coyote challenge with a pup distress call?"

Reply: We will never know, but challenges are negative, right from the start and return challenges may prvoke an approach....eventually, and maybe not, due to the territorial issues and other reasons we may never understand.

Non threatening howls and the distressed pup or hurt coyote are usually better....in my view. They don't require a lot of "back and forth" and (if they are going to work); they work right away.

Good hunting. LB

[edge]

Rich Cronk,glad to meet ya,hope your health improves.Certainly glad to have you here while your mending.

lb,had I seen Cronk,Ida knowed.......but rich c..........could be lotsa folk.

Edge