New BMP's are out and revisions

[trappincoyotes39]

The Bobcat BMP is out here is what was passed. 1.5cs, 1.75 cs,2 cs,3cs,3 DBL sleepy creek, 1.5 SC,3sc, 1.75 lam o/s, 2 lam o/s,3 lam o/s, MB650, and MJ600.

Gray Fox: 1 lam, 1.75 lam o/s, 1.5SC, 2 BMI cushion catch, 1.5 cs humane hold pads installed.

Coyote West: Montana modified, MB 650, 3 bridger double lam, victor wide jaws 1.75 and 2.

Coyote East: Montana modified, victor wide jaws 1.75 and 2. Cable restraints

Also read the BMP main document as it talks about submersion standards which is it must prevent the animal from surfacing once it has submerged. Also key note: performance standards are compairable to kill type and restraining devices. So the issued is addressed. They also inculded 1x19 wire in there as well. As an acceptable wire to use.

Coon revised to include many killer type traps not previously mentioned.

Go to fishwildlife.org to read them in full.

[trappnman]

I am unable to find them under that link

[akona20]

www.fishwildlife.org/furbearer_resources.html

Try that and check out the links on the page.

[trappnman]

perhaps someone could point out to me the sentance concerning drowning in these "revised" bmps?

[trappincoyotes39]

Go to the main BMP document the top one on the page read carefully I think page 5 or 6 it's there or I wouldn't have posted word for word!!!!!!!!

Imagine the BMP's finally addressing the very thing many said, Won't ever be addressed!!!!!

[trappnman]

gee 37- maybe because we made a fuss over it?:seems logical.

I've looked for the drowning thing twice- but don't worry about it- I'm done looking for it.

[trappincoyotes39]

Could be? Could be many have had the same sentiments too? Could be the BMP's don't do knee jerk reactions to issues?

But remember "Never" is along time.

When I get time I will copy it over to the site for all to see.

[Steve Gappa]

could be they know they F***ked up, and are trying to give the coon bmps some resemblance of integrity?

I've looked a couple of times to find the pertinent info- if you don't want to help, and would rather make wisecracks, fine with me.

but the question still hasn't been answered- did a manufactor of coon specific traps have input in writing the protocal?

[foxcatcher1]

Steve go to the page with all the BMPs listed, go to the top one that says trapping in north america go to the bottom of page 5 and it talks about submersion trapping.

Don

[trappnman]

ok thanks......

thats a general statment, and mentions coon not at all.

Until I see the words "coon" drowning" "recommended" in the same sentance, its nothing new. Nothing

And thats what all the fuss is about? Much ado about...nothing.

one other point- they list the NTA as a link?

and not the FTA?

Well, since the NTA "experts" rubber stamped the bmps, I guess that figures.

[trappincoyotes39]

thats a general statment, and mentions coon not at all.

As I thought tman. It doesn't single out any one species but talks to the point of submersion and doesn't single out any species!!!! It used to be aquatic only, not you write it off because it doesn't talk straight to coon? Thye give there acceptance of such what more do you want?

one other point- they list the NTA as a link?

and not the FTA?

Well, since the NTA "experts" rubber stamped the bmps, I guess that figures.


What is rubber stamped? The FTA made there own bed on the BMP's to say otherwise is not correct. You can't be for one day, against the next, and then complain when they want the help or give credit in the past to only have the FTA scowl at the mere mention of there name with the BMP's.

What does the FTA want from the bmp"s? Anyone have a straight answer?

[Steve Gappa]

Once again, your knowledge of the facts concerning the FTA and bmps is nonexistent.

Are you a member of FTA?
If so, read your past magazines.

If not, then obviously you don't know the history.


As for the coon drowning- if that wording makes you feel good, grasp at whatever straws you want. Based on previous conversations with Hamilton, I undertand that SUBMERSION wil lbe accepted for AQUATIC animals.

coyotes and coon- aren't included.

A simple concise message from Dave would sure clear things up.

I do have a quaetion for you- have you ever seen a coon go down a slide wire?

I have on 3 occasions.

Say- if you aren't doing anything this Sat- ND convention is closer to you than me- come on up- and watch my coon demo.

You might be surprised at what you learn.

[trappincoyotes39]

Once again, your knowledge of the facts concerning the FTA and bmps is nonexistent.

Then enlighten me? Today 8/26/06 what is the offical stance of the FTA concerning BMPs? Please go into detail for me. Thank you.

As for the coon drowning- if that wording makes you feel good, grasp at whatever straws you want. Based on previous conversations with Hamilton, I undertand that SUBMERSION wil lbe accepted for AQUATIC animals.

coyotes and coon- aren't included.

A simple concise message from Dave would sure clear things up.

I'm grasping at nothing. It doesn't state for or against a coon or coyote correct? So how can you go with what was posted previous when this document just came out less than 2 weeks ago? Take it for what it is a pro stance from the BMP committe on submersion sets correct? It doesn't state aquatic only or that coons are not apart of submersion does it?

I do have a quaetion for you- have you ever seen a coon go down a slide wire?

No can't say as I have, I have watched them get whacked by 220's though. What is your point?

As far as saturday, sorry can't make it. The only convention I'll attend this year is in Camp Crook,SD. I'm sure you'll do a fine job in ND with your coon demo but would have very limited value in my trapping. Good Day.

[Steve Gappa]

Then enlighten me? Today 8/26/06 what is the offical stance of the FTA concerning BMPs? Please go into detail for me. Thank you.

asked and answered in a previous post.

Someone get some balls then- IF DROWNING IS RECOMMENDED FOR COON, THEN PLEASE HAVE IT PRINTED LOUD AND CLEAR.

I'm betting the that this will NEVER happen, based on PERSONAL DIRECT ONE ON ONE CONVERSATIONS with Mr Hamiltion. If this has changed- HOORAY-

the point is, a coon does not go under and stay submerged.

As far as entanglement being appropirate for you, not the point.

the point IS- entanglement DOES NOT, NO MATTER WHAT COON "EXPERTS" AT THE NTA TOLD HUBER-

cause more damage. Anyone stating that- has never tried it correctly- or is a fool.

Entanglement causes far less to no damage.

[trappincoyotes39]

the point is, a coon does not go under and stay submerged.

Good point because they are not a aquatic species, I don't think coons do much water diving to the bottom of 4-6ft of water. So how would one then set a BMP protocol for the coon? Seeing how he is not a diver? Muskrat and beaver no problem, coons a bigger issue, many know this Steve and one of the major reasons we won't be seeing coon submersion test being done, due to the longer nature of time to death.

Sharp drop offs and weights would be the ideal scenario for testing but means little in the way of areas found on many coon lines. Or rivers with alot of current would also be another good testing area, but again limited in scope of testing area.

So by having a positive stance on submersion and leaving it at that is ideal for trappers wouldn't you think? BMP's need to have validity or why do the testing?

[trappnman]

then the statement in the bmps means nothing- because it is not a recomended dispatch method.

Implied means nothing.

The bottom line is- all coon setups in water, for the bmps- MUST have land access.

beaver do not meet the death requirements- so will beaver then not be allowed to be drowned?

Thats the trouble trying to quantify such things.

Bototm line for me- test METHODS along with traps.

[trappincoyotes39]

then the statement in the bmps means nothing- because it is not a recommended dispatch method.

It can not be recommend without being tested! It can be shown as a positive means of trapping though.

As I'm sure you know away a beaver or rat succumbs to a slide wire is different than a coon or any other non aquatic species. If you want to look at it all from a regulation stand point so be it.

The question is do you want all BMP's to be subjected to different "techniques" or methods of use? Written into each final draft? How many pages would you like a coon BMP to be in the end?

[trappnman]

how many pages? 1 or 100- do it right and it doesn't matter.

Mn defines drowning very simply- any set designed to drown an animal.

I'm sorry- I don't consider such a lulewarm, contradictory statement (compared to the criteria that coon must have land access to be humane) to be much of anything, and I don't think coon was what they had in mind in any case.

Drowning is just part of it- and really, nothing to do with te coon bmps.

it still comes down to two things- that I as a long time coon trapper know to be as bogus as a red $2 bill:

1) entanglement causes more damage

If anyone believes this, I challange them to come here and defend it- telling me their methods used and the damage they get. I KNOW for a fact, have shown others on my line the proof, that proper use of entanglement PLUS free range of motion, reduces and/or eliminates coon chewing. No bull. Fact.

2) hoolding a coon in water is inhumane.

Bullshit. What geneus developed this test score and please- show me ANY proof or justification for it.

Facts are this- you want a coon to chew- put him out in the open, make him immovable, give him no diversions (entanglemnet) and by golly- what do oyu get?

Coon that chew. A lot.

and dang it- if our bmp tests didn't show just that.

Up next- we are taping the wings of Red Wing Blackbirds closed, and throwing them up in the air.

Results: Birds with red wings can't fly.....

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman just take some pictures this winter of your conditions and the coon and the coons feet, no one needs to come there pictures are worth a 1,000 words. Send them on to Dave and others at IAFWA and get your ideas on the table!!!!

If you and all other trappers are OK with very regional BMP"s and precise wording as to how the trap was used and is passed then it's a win/win then!!!!

I KNOW for a fact, have shown others on my line the proof, that proper use of entanglement PLUS free range of motion, reduces and/or eliminates coon chewing. No bull. Fact.

I'm betting instead of entanglement you mean diversion? I would like to see how you entangle while still giving free range of motion? Dragging would work in this area, but even then you can have some issues? Once swivels are non operational then problems arise. Heavy drags of lumber are not available to all coon trappers!

Also what kind of issues do you have when it gets down in the 20's with coons in water as far as fighting and higher damage from the coons? I can't believe any coon is docile enough to stand in low 40 or high 30 something degree water and not want to fight the trap? You have little damage in these situations? I guess if you answer yes again the digital camera would be proof positive.

how many pages? 1 or 100- do it right and it doesn't matter.

The problem being how many would call it red tape affair? Done right to you means something totally different to the guy even 1 state away or on the other side of a state! I guess maybe we need to look at state to state coon BMP's and then we can throw in different protocols and methods? Would that be an agreeable solution for you?

Why not try to build and make equipment that can cover as many cirumstances as possible? What is wrong with that concept? Sure we could all drag coyotes but in some areas it wouldn't be productive. So people took marginal traps and made them far better. What is so different with coons and trying to improve upon equipment?

You have valid points if they work out to the degree you state? Won't work for all in all areas. Get those pictures. I still say doing a few mods to the 1.5 and you still have a great multi species water trap, then the methods can be far reaching with a little welding time and rod.

[trappnman]

I would like to see how you entangle while still giving free range of motion?

moveable drags- entangle, untangle, move along, entangle, untangle, etc.

Also what kind of issues do you have when it gets down in the 20's with coons in water as far as fighting and higher damage from the coons? I can't believe any coon is docile enough to stand in low 40 or high 30 something degree water and not want to fight the trap? You have little damage in these situations?

when the air/water is that cold, I use drowners for a 3 day check on 90% of my line.

All my other sets- are moveable drags, and I see no difference.

my methods, etc have bene directly explained to Dave- and he was not interested because 1) holding in water is inhumane 2) entanglement is inhumane.

According to the bmp committee that is-