Question to Dave Hamilton

[trappnman]

Couple of questions regarding coon bmps:

I would like to know the names of those on the ad hoc committee. Those responsible for writing the protocal and having voting power. Who they were and what affiliation they mighht have.

I would also like to know the names of the trappers doing the tests. Samarra Trusso was suppose to get back to the FTA with a list of the trappers testing the traps in the study after being asked in NY, but so far has not done so.

Both these items should be public information, and I think that to know the answers to both questions, would be enlightening.

Thanks.

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Related issue on the FTA- the FTA NEVER abstained from the BMP process, much as its been ballyooed. What the FTA did, was draft a statement of NO SUPPORT for the way the process was being conducted AT THAT TIME.

Something, a few months later, the NTA duplicated with 2 such statements.

Thats the facts.

[sinrud]

Trapperman,

Samarra Trusso is no longer with the IAFWA - BMP. She has been with the PA Game Dept for over a year (at least I'm 95% sure it's th PA Dept).

The one in charge of the IAFWA (now called, I think the NAFWA?) is Don McGlaughlin in D.C. Gordon Batcheller is the BMP Chairman (in New York).

Sinrud

[trappnman]

then I guess Dave will have to asnwer the question. I'm sure that it has been forwarded to Dave, if not- perhaps someone could do so like the last time, so Dave can make an appearance here and give us an answer.

I think, perhaps, its a very important question. I think the answers might be enlightening.

[trappnman]

I thought perhaps we might get an answer by now.

The reason I bring it up is simple- I hear that a trap manufactor, was on the coon bmp committiee.

He was one of those who wrote and approved the coon bmp protocal.

This protocal, in my opinion and others, were made ot basically eliminate the foothold trap i ncoon trapping.

This trap manufactor manufactors a coon specific trap, that passed the bmps.

I also heard he was a tech on the project, and some of the coon from his tests had scores that were unheard of on any of the other data sheets- scores well over 300! (dead is 100)

I think it important we know the truth about this- because if true, those bmps are so tainted to not even deserve the paper they are written on.

I want to make clear- this is not fact- only speculation.

Which is why answers would be nice to have.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I'm willing to bet you already have your answer correct? Then why not share the name of this person? I also think it a stretch to say that the protocol was set out to destroy the leg hold trap as a tool for coons, thats a stretch don't you think? Also I would have a hard time believing one man in the trap manufacturing business to have the clout to run a protocol of his own and look to take out the foothold for personal gain and be allowed to get by with it from the IAFWA. Another far fetched theory. Also even the FTA states that the help of Robert Wadell and Robert Colona are responsable for helping in a heated ad hoc debate on the coon issue, guess what? Colona was one of the top guys behind the protocols on coons!!!!!!!!

I also heard he was a tech on the project, and some of the coon from his tests had scores that were unheard of on any of the other data sheets- scores well over 300! (dead is 100)

Tman a tech in a BMP study does paperwork, tags samples, decides from a random list the tool to be placed. All scores are on a blind study and given after necropsy are done at the vet lab. The trapper sets the tool tested and kills the species and is their from Start to finish and delivers the carcasses to the person in charge of taking them to the vet lab. A good vet could tell coon injury from a person set out to cause more injury and any injury from outside the trapping of the species must be recorded as well. I had a coyote trap set close to a fence and the barb cut him a little high on the leg I made mention of that and was not counted because it had no bearing on the trap study itself.

This trap manufacture manufactures a coon specific trap, that passed the bmps.

No surprise any coon specific trap that encloses the foot from the coon should pass and pass with flying colors. There are at least 4 designs that do so to date. Sounds to me like an ol' fashioned witch hunt.

[trappnman]

Were Duke traps allowed to write protocal? Victor? Bridger?

Why not?

To me it sounds to me like a vested interest in the outcome.

and no, I don't know if it is true or not. Ask Dave.

Witch hunt? LOL- yeah...its a witch hunt. Got your bucket of water?

[trappnman]

its such a simple question, I'm thinking the answer is not forthcoming because it would taint the entire coon bmps.

if it is true, that a manufactor of a coon specific trap was on the committee that WROTE the protocal- the joke sure was on the foothold guys!

and if its also true that the several 300 point coon were on his data sheets...one really has to start wondering.

the bmps arep ublic knowledge, correct? why the secrecy?

Actually, if true, its easy to understand the secrecy and lack of response.

And if not true- that a coon specific manufactor was indeed not part of the committee, then state that and we can move on.

[trappincoyotes39]

if it is true, that a manufacture of a coon specific trap was on the committee that WROTE the protocol- the joke sure was on the foothold guys!

Tman I have no idea if fact or false!!! I had nothing to do with the coon BMP study. I will say knowing the IAFWA and the way they operate, there not going to let one man make the decisions of protocol all on his own!!!! If anything he would get more scrutiny for owning a trap manufacture business!!! What he paid them off? Has so much power that he could manipulate the entire protocol and process? "Doubt that"

If you have the name please post it?

and if its also true that the several 300 point coon were on his data sheets...one really has to start wondering.

I would like to know where that info came from? I don't know of any trapper that received that information back? No not another conspiracy theory LOL!

the bmps are public knowledge, correct? why the secrecy?

Yes that is why they have on the INTERNET and free copy's by request of the final drafts.

Actually, if true, its easy to understand the secrecy and lack of response.

Actually the statements made are so outlandish that I'm sure "some" consider them not worthy of an answer. If you have the name and source of the 300 scores please post that information so Dave or someone else can refute that information?

[trappnman]

LOL

just name the name huh? You sure have been busy trying to find out that name, haven't you, with emails demanding the name?

Ask Dave.

no conspiracys here- a simple question:

Was a manufactor of a coon specific trap- involved in writing the coon bmps?

Yes or no?

YES or FRIGGING NO???????

The answer will come out.

And if true, the coon bmps are so tainted, they become useless.

no matter what the Jedi says.....

AS far as 300+ scored coon- thats a fact.

THats not in doubt.

What is in doubt- is what tech reported those scores?

The same man that was on the coon protocal committee that manufators coon specific traps?

Yes or no?????????????????????????

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[trappnman]

I don't know of any trapper that received that information back?

LOL- Guess you don't know it all then.

are you implying its so secret, that the truth can't come out?

It will.

In time,

[Wiley]

T'man: "Related issue on the FTA- the FTA NEVER abstained from the BMP process, much as its been ballyooed. What the FTA did, was draft a statement of NO SUPPORT for the way the process was being conducted AT THAT TIME."

Present that statement!

FTA's position was "FTA DOES NOT SUPPORT THE BMP PROCESS", period!

Prove me wrong!

Why FTA would expect to be included in the process when they voted not to support the process will be puzzling you for years won't it?


Gappa: "The reason I bring it up is simple- I hear that a trap manufactor, was on the coon bmp committiee."

So what?

Creating another "ILLUSION" of inpropriety because you didn't like the outcome?

Wouldn't it stand to reason that any coon specific trap manufacturer would want to be part of the bmp process to make sure that his/her trap was represented fairly? I would think any trap manufacturer worth his/her salt would be involved to make sure their trap was represented fairly particularly when you consider how new some of these traps are.


Gappa: "He was one of those who wrote and approved the coon bmp protocal."

So what? So did many other trappers! No single person ran that show. I know for a fact that many top NTA representatives also helped to write those protocols.


Gappa: "This protocal, in my opinion and others, were made ot basically eliminate the foothold trap i ncoon trapping."

That statement is absolutely false. I'll refrain from calling it what it really is.......

No wait, on second thought I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Are you suggesting that the bmp protocol for raccoon was written WITH THE INTENT to basically eliminate the foothold trap or are you saying that the way the bmp was written was not very well thought out and therefore assured that most traps would fail? For example, by having the 55 injury score too high?

Bailed you out of that one didn't I?


Gappa: "This trap manufactor manufactors a coon specific trap, that passed the bmps."

Name me a coon specific trap that didn't pass the bmps?

Irrelevant!


Gappa: "I also heard he was a tech on the project, and some of the coon from his tests had scores that were unheard of on any of the other data sheets- scores well over 300! (dead is 100)"

Prove it! You hear lots of things you'd like to believe.


Gappa: "I think it important we know the truth about this- because if true, those bmps are so tainted to not even deserve the paper they are written on."

Then why don't you PRESENT THE TRUTH instead of "HERESAY"?


Gappa: "I want to make clear- this is not fact- only speculation."

Then why present it? TO CREATE AN ILLUSION???


Gappa: "Were Duke traps allowed to write protocal? Victor? Bridger?

Why not?"

Why do you assume they were not involved in the process? If they were not, DID THEY WANT TO BE?

More speculation and conspiracy theory on your part.


Gappa: "Was a manufactor of a coon specific trap- involved in writing the coon bmps?"

Doesn't matter whether he was or wasn't, what matters is whether he was the ONLY person involved in writing the coon bmps. If he wasn't the only person involved in writing the coon bmps, then those bmps reflect the attitudes of many coon trappers and not just his.

More conspiracy theories!


Gappa: "And if true, the coon bmps are so tainted, they become useless."

Hahaha! Because a trap manufacturer may have been involved in writing the coon bmps? Hahahaha!

Hilarious!


Gappa: "AS far as 300+ scored coon- thats a fact."

PROVE IT!

Prove to me that someone included a 300 damage score in the final coon bmp tally. It's bullsh*t! The techs didn't record the damage scores, THE VETERINARIANS DID WHO CONDUCTED THE NECROPSY!

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.


BTW, I asked a number of big numbers coon trappers at the NTA convention what they thought about your recommendation of including entanglement to reduce injury scores. They looked at me like I had two heads and stated that entanglement would increase the injury scores. Now had you been at the table instead of on the internet, you could have conducted meaningful debate on this issue since you disagree with numerous other coon trappers. After I thought about it further, I even remembered that the NTA was upset that some of the trappers may have made their sets too close to entanglement and this was one of the issues in the NTA's raccoon bmp protocal.

Now if you want to discuss foot submergence, bmp regional boundaries, and the 55 threshold injury score, then you might find yourself with valid arguments instead of chasing baseless conspiracy theories to discredit the process.

You stated previously that you had caught hundreds or thousands (can't remember) of coon in December and January in running water.

My questions to you in response to that statement is:

1. What is your average temperature at that time of year and why are your coon not semi-hibernating like the coon in my area are in December in January?

2. Why is your water not froze during that time of year and most other areas is?

3. How many years out of 10 is 50% or more of your coon trapping water open in December and January?

4. Why would your coon not die of hypothermia with their foot in ice water and Southern coon "supposedly" do?


Someone said you issued a challenge on one of these threads for me to name 4 things I disagreed with regarding bmps?

1. Coyote protocol of having 2 sets too close together at one location. This protocol should have been changed initially.

2. Coon threshold set too high at 55. Does not consider self mutilation. Coon threshold didn't need to be as high as other species due to the self chewing aspect of coons.

3. Regional boundaries for the coon bmps should have been more specific.

4. Your foot submergence test should have been tested and the results of that test posted on your site right alongside your comments speculating on the results of such a test.

5. That the IAFWA BMP comittee catered to some "chronic bitchers" who were only out to sabotage the process. LOL!

6. Trap testers should have been selected through the various state trapping associations.


There's 4 plus 2. RELEVANCE?

Thought you had a BMP Kool Aid drinker because I didn't buy the conspiracy bullsh*t again huh?


Steve, do you belong to the Minnesota Trappers Association?

Yes or no?


~SH~

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman as Wiley stated the scores are not nore ever been given by the tech!!!! The score comes from the vet only, as they have the expertise to see the differance in damage internally not a tech!!!

Also your animals don't go into the study with your name and address they are given a numerical system that doesn't know me from the next guy, and to think of it we are given a trapper ID which can be given out in any order.

just name the name huh? You sure have been busy trying to find out that name, haven't you, with emails demanding the name?

NO!!! This started with a member PM'ing me on this matter and yet he didn't give out the name either? Are there people afraid of recourse? If this information is rock solid fact, then why not bring it out for all to see and judge? Until the facts come out then it is all hersay and will switch 5 times from now LOL!

[Steve Gappa]

Question for Dave Hamilton-Was a manufactor of a coon specific trap on the committee that wrote the coon bmp protocal...

Was this same man also a tech on the project.

THank you.

[Steve Gappa]

BTW, I asked a number of big numbers coon trappers at the NTA convention what they thought about your recommendation of including entanglement to reduce injury scores. They looked at me like I had two heads and stated that entanglement would increase the injury scores

they they don't know what they are talking about- and I don't care what names you name. If your "experts" state that entanglement cause MORE injuries rather than reducing injuries- They are flat out WRONG.

They 1) either don't have a clue how to use entanglement or 2) have never used entanglement.

Prove it? come here and run my line with me. I'll put my coon knowledge and coon trapping expertise up against ANY coon trapper out there, NTA "expert" or not. Not brag- just fact.


1. What is your average temperature at that time of year and why are your coon not semi-hibernating like the coon in my area are in December in January?

Our coon do SEMI hibernate- but also, like your coon, in warm weather they come out- in bunches. Fact. And, its hundreds of coon a year- adding up to 1000s. Thanks for being concerned. I've been coon trapping before you were born... and ever since.

2. Why is your water not froze during that time of year and most other areas is?

Simple- look at a map- hills and limestone spring fed creeks- the water is too warm to freeze- multiple coldwater springs- water is always upper 30s. Some creeks do feeze. Most do not. Fact.

3. How many years out of 10 is 50% or more of your coon trapping water open in December and January?

Every year since the early 90s. thats when the coon season stayed open longer that Dec 31.

4) Why would your coon not die of hypothermia with their foot in ice water and Southern coon "supposedly" do?

Don't have a clue. Thicker underfur is my guess.

[Steve Gappa]

this is exactly the type of tone and attitude I am talking about- where did I ever say anything about conspiracy?

Never-

are you unable to understand what a string of words mean? Do oyu always have to change and rearrange to suit your intent? Or in this case fabricate yet another "quote" for me?

Take things at face value- man, talk about conspiracy theroists-

and you demand answers? LOL

[trappincoyotes39]

Steve if he was a tech it means little!!! The tech records species caught, gives out tool to be set using a random table, records jaw width, records location of catch both field location and location on physical area of species caught. Records location of each tool,check times, Bags them and tags them thats it.

A tech does not give out a score, would be insane to inflict injury to an already caught species, and what trapper would allow it? Maybe the question should be who was the trapper and was he paid off to allow such tampering? Or who was the director overseeing both the trapper and tech? and was he paid off for such tampering to achieve the 300 score?

I'm gonna say Mr Plum, in the kitchen, with the rope.

If you want a serious answer then I would pose the question as statement to your facts, did MR? partake as a tech etc etc. To do otherwise is to have nothing but a conspiracy looking for answers that may not be.

[Steve Gappa]

TC- I honestly don't know the answers- and would like to..
i heard this- no proof- will accept Dave Hamiltons world either way -that

1) a man who owns the rights to manufactor a coon specific trap, was on the committee that wrtoe the protocal..I have serious reservations about that protocal. I think it could not have been written to induce chewing if it had intended to be that way. No conspiracy, just incredulation. It goes against all I know to be true in decades of coon trapping.

Not a little off- 180 off.

I honestly don't care what any so called experts on coon trappign say about more damage on entanglement- after decades of coon trapping- developing methods- I know whats true and what is false. If they say that- they have 1) never used entanglement and are just parrotting words or 2) have not used entanglement correctly vias drags, etc.

Feel free to invite any of those expert coon men here and I'll be glad to discuss the issue with them. Since Wiley doens't understand the entangelment methods, its doubtful he asked the question in any meaningful way.

2) I also heard that this same man was a tech. I find that odd.

is that true? I don't know. I ask.

3) I also know that there were several coon that had a 300+ total score. Don't ask how I know- I know, and leave it at that. Ask Dave Hamilton if this is true. If its false, I'd like to know.

I also heard, that this data was recorded on this same mans data sheets.

I do not know if that was true. I ask.

[trappincoyotes39]

I also heard, that this data was recorded on this same mans data sheets.

Impossible!!!! Only 2 places give out scores and those are the vet labs 1 in WY and 1 beleive in Georgia, NO TECH and I mean none gets to have anything to do with injury scores period plain and simple that info is false.

[trappnman]

no yo umisunderstand.

the tech did not make thei njury socres- the question is- did those 300 socred coon, come from his route. In other words- were the coon that receivced such scores- all from his interpretation of the protocal?

the 300+ score isn't a rumour- whether it was this same person is.

which is why I ask.

[trappincoyotes39]

If he followed the protocol laid out and did it as the manual explains would be my question? I'm not into the idea that one would sabotage the process for personnal gain. Again the spotlight would be on this person, and many other testers involved you could look at all other data and hypothosize if the scores where way out of whack of the others for the same tool type by tool type ID.

I hope Dave does come on and put this runaway train to bed.

Better yet get ahold of Robert Colona and ask him to put in hos words as he was one of the top guys I believe on the coon BMP, surely he would have the answers?

Remember though don't cry wolf too many times or if I was in the position of Dave H I would be hesitant to keep coming back to clean up spilled milk?