|
Post by trappnman on Jul 27, 2006 18:04:38 GMT -6
The only way a bounty on coyotes works is nationwide all states paying the same for a set of ears, otherwise you have plenty of room for many to cash in on multiple payouts and importing of coyote ears from bordering states.
Not true at all. We had a bounty system here until last year. A couple of townships paid $15 each. No fraud- small townships, place of demise had to be noted, on what farm and legally taken- all the board members farmers- they knew what was going on. Heck, I trap on most of their farms.
However, I won't argue the effectiveness of the bounty, as I think they were starting to figure out- I'd take 30-35 yotes a year in those 2 twsps, and the amount of coyotes never seemed to change....
but fraud wasn't an issue.
|
|
|
Post by Dhat on Jul 29, 2006 13:49:02 GMT -6
ive never seen a bounty program without some sort of curruption some worse than others
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 29, 2006 14:49:53 GMT -6
Well, I just told you about one bounty system without corruption- and heres another- pocket gophers.
Every township around pays bounty- no corruption- its all the same.
Once again, effectiveness on wide ranging animals is certainly an issue.
But as stated, I have taken part in coyote bounties and gopher bountie- and no corruption here.
I can't paint with a broad brush and tell you what other bounty system may or may not have for corruption- can only report on the townships here.
|
|
|
Post by michiganwolverines on Jul 29, 2006 22:53:12 GMT -6
I live right on the border of Michigan/Wisconsin and in all honestly that baiting law hasnt done squat. I know a lot of people that hunt in Wisconsin and by me here many hunt in both. Michigans rifle season opens the 15th of November no matter what days it is on and Wisconsin ALWAYS opens on the Saturday after Michigan so many guys hunt the first couple days or almost a week (depending on what day of the week the 15th lands on that year) and then gets to start all over and have anohter opening weekend in Wisconsin after the best couple days of Michigan season is over, but getting back to the point I was trying to make. I DONT KNOW 1 person whp follows that baiting law, I personally dont hunt in Wisconsin, only Michigan but I know of AT LEAST 25 people that deer hunt in Wisconsin and they ALL BAIT HEAVY. This is the honest to God truth, I know a guy who baits 1 ton of corn EVERY Satytrday ALL YEAR round, yes thats right 1 ton (2,000 pounds). He owns 80 aces and its like a deer park back in there. Most guys just throw a couple hundred punds out a week but ,my point is that BAITING LAW in Wisconsin IS A JOKE!!!
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 30, 2006 7:38:45 GMT -6
Tman, I agree if I have 3 ranchers and they decide to bounty coyotes fraud could be handled better, but make it a county wide or state wide bounty and you have zero control over fraud! 15.00 in this day and age won't get too many off the couch, make it 25.00-30.00 or more and fraud will be there guranteed. Bounty of fall coyotes does nothing to help with population control, the the grand scheme as you stated. Also having a couple townships in smaller counties has "NO real" effect on coyotes, a bounty that would be agrressive and large scale would/did/will have fraud thats just a fact. Unless you have a nationwide bounty all paying the same and all ears kept and destroyed on turn in.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 30, 2006 7:53:22 GMT -6
I think if you read my post, you will see I say that coyote bounties don't do much good.
You can also take it as fact fraud didn't occur.
I was there.
|
|
|
Post by Dhat on Jul 30, 2006 13:02:05 GMT -6
not to get technical but isnt this the forum where the big deal about a fact being a fact came up.
it may be a fact that noone ever got caught but painting pretty broadly to say its a fact it never happened
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 30, 2006 15:34:46 GMT -6
Bountys will have fraud, as I know of township bounties that paid for beaver and you showed a tail and you got 10.00, problem being they didn't keep the damn tails and guess what wait a week and bring back the same tails+ the newbie tails and you have corruption. The problem being funding for bounties comes from many sources not directly affecting 1-10 people and if that where the case, then more control would be in effect, or having a country wide bounty as I described. People soon wise up to the bounty issue as it has never in the life of it had any direct control on species population as the price paid has never justified control efforts when it matters most, outside of the 30's-40's. Sure was nice getting paid for dispersal critter body parts but no real lasting effect for what they where setup for in the very beginning.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 30, 2006 16:02:43 GMT -6
dhat - I'm TELLING you there was no fraud. I know the farmers. I know the circumstances. I go to the meetings.
Do you?
No broad brush at all- just 2 little townships. Believe me, don't believe me, believe whatever your heart desires
If you are calling me a liar- state it plainly.
Bountys will have fraud, as I know of township bounties that paid for beaver and you showed a tail and you got 10.00, problem being they didn't keep the damn tails and guess what wait a week and bring back the same tails+ the newbie tails and you have corruption.
I guess stupid is as stupid does.
|
|
|
Post by Dhat on Jul 30, 2006 16:21:52 GMT -6
nope not calling you a liar and no need to get bent ut of shape. just saying lots of things go on nobody knows about..if your gonna get all mad about a simple conversation then so be it you win.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 30, 2006 17:47:29 GMT -6
I tend to get "bent out of shape" with comments like this-
"not to get technical but isnt this the forum where the big deal about a fact being a fact came up."
so when my word is questioned- I'll respond.
It was quite clear the "fact" I was talking about was from 2 small, local townships.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 31, 2006 14:34:41 GMT -6
please show the damage reports, both on domestic species and wild in states like MN, WS, etc. from coyotes.
thanks.
A coyote killing a pheasant isn't "causing damage"
Unless of course you are one of those people that puts one animal above another in value and worth?
Lets start with value and worth, wildlife has always had that! The people put value and worth to each species. Look at black footed ferrets and the wolf reintroduction done. Millions spent on those 2 species. Someone made those decisions. You don't get the same fine for shooting a coon illegally as you do a deer correct? Value and worth there too. Shooting a pheasant out of season or illegally has a value and worth and that is how they come to a dollar amount of the fine for each illegal pheasant correct?
In predation there can be a value to lost wild species as well. You assign value to trees lost to beavers as you do livestock lost to producers. There is value to wildlife or why would we spend millions each year on protecting it? The guys that have paid to hunt operations have value to wildlife as if they loose big bucks to Mt Lions,wolves, coyotes etc that cost them dollars. Read OG's portion in hoof beats makes sense as the dollar turns and you can see what impact depredation and weather can have financially on Game Dept's and pay to hunt operations.
Wildlife services spent 248,981 in fiscal year 2000 in the state of Minnesota. The WS program in Minnesota expended more than 2,300 hours responding to more than 65 incidents involving wolf damage in 1997As far as domestic pets who could say the number as there is no reporting system in many mid western states and even some cats and dogs go unreported in other states as well. To say coyotes don't kill them is naive. The wolf gets the press more than the coyote, but you believe that coyotes are not killing livestock in your state? I quote: "so why do states that have never had a coyote problem have no season or protection on them?" Name me the state that has never had a problem?
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 31, 2006 16:43:51 GMT -6
lets kill em all!!!!
a few calves, a few lambs- legitmate complaints on coyotes are very rare. Probelms? they saw a coyote once, a year later they find a dead calf.
Its not a problem here- I ASK the farmers- have had TWO report possible CALF losses over past years. POSSIBLE.
I know of 3 poeple with sheep i nmy 2 counties- and we probably lead the state i nsheep. Yes, they do lose a few- and thats a problem for them- not the state of MN.
To much easy prey and more to the point- cattle and sheep aren't running all over 200,000 acres of crap. The farmers actually take care of their stock here.
Se how different our area is? Outthere, the farmers have to have YOU watch over their stock.
even if ALL the reports were true- what a pittance in the bucket of value and cost- $248,000- bah- thats nothing.
Problem? mountain out of a molehill.
Wolves have nothing to do with arguement either way.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 31, 2006 18:36:49 GMT -6
I know of 3 poeple with sheep i nmy 2 counties- and we probably lead the state i nsheep. Yes, they do lose a few- and thats a problem for them- not the state of MN.
First off tman your in 2 counties correct? In your state you have 154,852 head of sheep thats total ewe's and lambs. Are all those sheep on the 3 farms you trap on? Then there as big as the western ranchers if that is the case!
How can you tell me Min has little to no sheep issues? Do you get across the whole state? 294 farms have 100-300 head making up 47,675 sheep total. You have 72 farms that run 300-999 head making up 32,407 head and they have zero loss to predators?
Not saying kill them all not the point, the point is coyotes cause issues of different kinds in "ALL" states thats a fact, that is the reason states like to keep there numbers supressed and allow year round control.
To much easy prey and more to the point- cattle and sheep aren't running all over 200,000 acres of crap. The farmers actually take care of their stock here.
You sound like a PA transplant that lives down the road and has 15 ewes and says his loss is minimal, yet I still took 6 coyotes off his 50 acres. He had a hot wire elaborate fence around them, uses them to train sheep dogs. The coyotes where drawn to his small flock when needed to be. You don't get it, out here you would be a broke farmer if you tried to rely on row crops and you have open range to allow better grazing practices and save money, as alot of what we sell off get's finished at feed lots where they have a cheaper supply of grain and handle them for alot less time. Without the open range grazing ranchers all meat would cost all of us much more, as there is no cheaper way to start cattle or sheep than on open range grazing grounds.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 31, 2006 20:12:16 GMT -6
was I talking "out there"?
no.
you made the blanket statement of ALL states...and I called you on it.
"out there" is whatever it is.
|
|