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Post by Clyde Isaak on Jul 4, 2006 10:29:43 GMT -6
First some background. I'm from ND and a Charter member of the NORTH DAKOTA FUR HUNTERS AND TRAPPERS ASSOCIATION. A committee, of people I greatly respect, from our association has been working with the ND Game & Fish dept. for close to 3 years on developing a "Fur Harvesters Education" manual to be used in a Fur Harvesters Education program here in the state. I have been anxiously waiting for the details to be finalized so that I can become a certified instructo,r as I believe education is extreamily immportant. Our manual has finnaly been completed and is available on our web site (www.ndfhta.com) for final review before going to the printers. I am a little nervous about the manual. While I may not disagree with anything it contains, it does contain much detail that and information that is more restrictive than what we now enjoy here in ND. Many subjects are covered in broad terms with language from a manual that the IAFWA (sp. ?) must be promoting as a result of the whole BMP process. While I acknowledge that there have been flaws in the whole BMP process, I am not against them as i do feel they can be a valuable tool for us to use in reaching general voting public. My first thought when reviewing the manual is that why would it contail information not pertinate to ND? It contains information on regualtions that are not required here and that makes me nervous. Most of that stuff I likely agree with and probably already practice, but it makes me nervous to see it in print. I may be paranoid about nothing but would like you guys to check out the manual on our web site and see what you think of it. It can be found at www.ndfhta.com Greenhorn
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 4, 2006 12:40:50 GMT -6
green horn your manual is takin in part or whole from the IAFWA trapper ed manual. IT IS a LIVING document and is open to change for each state to add or delete areas for the states needs and rules and regs. Just because it may talk about other options or ways of doing things doesn't make them law. You can find many things in a hunt ed class that are not rules or regs and have been discussed for many years. Alot is to show/teach proper ethics and methods some people will use them others will not but it is still a choice and not a mandate.
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Post by Clyde Isaak on Jul 4, 2006 14:10:50 GMT -6
tc37 - thanks for your reply. What you stated is what I figured happened. I have total respect for the people from my trapping association that have spent countless hours developing this program and will be talking with them about any concerns I may have. Overall I think the manual is extreamly well done and look forward to becoming a certified instructor and holding one of the first classes in the state in my area yet this fall.
Greenhorn
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Post by Stef on Jul 11, 2006 9:04:26 GMT -6
Thanks Greenhorn for posting that link.
As i could see on the BMP reports.... all traps you're using are meeting the BMP... Not many changes there. Great for you guys in the USA.
Us, in Canada.... Its a pretty rough!
Stef
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jul 18, 2006 6:30:38 GMT -6
Welcome to the future greeenhorn. You have your answer from the BMP Jedi, but you are simply seeing the future through the eyes of the bmps committee.
Sounds nice..kind of like we are going to make all the restrictive laws and have them in place...but we won't never, ever, use them.
Trust us......
My prediction? In 10 years, at least 15 states will have more restrictive trapping laws, equipment restrictions, etc...all based on these bmps fellows like TC35 are promoting so highly.
Its already happening.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 18, 2006 20:11:45 GMT -6
Tman why have all the BMP data and not put it to use with new trappers? What the he**'s the point then of any BMP even the coyote BMP you have no problem with, if your not going to show equipment that has passed testing as a guideline to new trappers? I have no problem in telling any young or new trapper that a sterling, Montana, modified #3 are all great coyote choices, you have your 1.75 on the list as well correct? Many options to show as guidelines and not making them law, as the BMP trapper ed is put together in away to make it state friendly, to add or delete sections that don't fit into the state laws already on the books. I'll go out on a limb and say you will see states in the future modify trapping regs and some of the BMP material may just save some tools in states without the data from the BMP"s could be wiped away. The states that make reg changes will do so from the people of those states and not from the BMP committee looking to regulate trapping more. That is not what the IAFWA is about! Some states will face more pressure and some change dynamics of people involved but I can tell you things like the BMP's and trapping matters workshops is information that has and will enlighten many people unfamiliar with trapping working for game Dept's, rather than deter them or make them more negative on trapping.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 18, 2006 20:18:34 GMT -6
what the hells the problem?
I'll tell you what the hell is a problem- trappers promoting bogus studies.
As it has been all along.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 18, 2006 20:22:38 GMT -6
LOL- you will go out on a limb and predict some states will save trapping with bmps?
sure, ok, could happen.
Me? I'll read the handwriting on the wall and look at what already has happened, and predict many states will face restricted trapping and perhaps lose many traps in use today- because of the bmps.
Me? I'll fight bogus bmps tooth and nail, rather than give up one right that could have been prevented with proper protocals.
You? Continue being the Jedi- promoting all bmps no matter their content and accuracy. I'd expect nothing less.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 19, 2006 0:53:53 GMT -6
I'll go out on a limb and say you will see states in the future modify trapping regs and some of the BMP material may just save some tools in states without the data from the BMP"s could be wiped away. The states that make reg changes will do so from the people of those states and not from the BMP committee looking to regulate trapping more. That is not what the IAFWA is about! Some states will face more pressure and some change dynamics of people involved but I can tell you things like the BMP's and trapping matters workshops is information that has and will enlighten many people unfamiliar with trapping working for game Dept's, rather than deter them or make them more negative on trapping. Remember that when western states start losing snares to cable restraints.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 19, 2006 5:28:11 GMT -6
So we will have the data and have traps like laminated, sterlings, coyote cuffs and many others and we will just slide it on the back shelf to collect dust? We will then tell them go out and buy the cheapest trap on the market a thin jawed razor cutter, because after all fur prices are down so save your money? Sorry, I'll promote the better equipment to new trappers as the more shown in empathy an caring about the animal as awhole will lend many to more trapping opportunity in areas where trapping may not be as popular with the general public and even the very landowners one will run into looking for permission.
Bogus studies? I see that as plural? What others are bogus tman?
Black coyote:Remember that when western states start losing snares to cable restraints.
A typical BMP blamer answer! Cable restraints are a 24 hr tool and as long as states have longer check laws, which many need due to size and to keep trapper interest and trappers use there heads with snares and use break aways, and keep domestics as a non issue in many parts of the west I don't see that as a problem. Matter of fact a few states that used to require deer stops only as legal have now in recent years switched laws to include break aways over deer stops as legal and in fact have made snares more of a lethal tool.
Don't forget state to state rules and regs, don't try and paint everyone with the black brush.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 19, 2006 6:20:45 GMT -6
heres the deal- why not wait and see what happens.
You claim no state ever will ever use the bmps to reduce trapping rights and snaring rights.
Those that read and see what is going on in other states, see this to be untrue.
So lets let the evidence come in.
And bmp blamer now? LOL ok- you never have ever gotten it in your head that GOOD bmps deserve support- BAD bmps deserve to be treated as they should be..
to hold each one up like a grail, only does a disservice to yourself and trapping.
Your absolute loyalty to the bmps and your employeer would be heartrendering if not so dangerous.
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Post by robertw on Jul 19, 2006 7:14:28 GMT -6
I think everyone is forgetting about "Voluntary Compliance".
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 19, 2006 8:53:04 GMT -6
The same can be said about hunting or fishing.And those will be the next things to fall under BMP testing.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 19, 2006 14:28:09 GMT -6
I think everyone is forgetting about "Voluntary Compliance".
No such thing you either have it or you don't and who said, The states will have voluntary compliance anyway? I don't see the BMP's causing more restrictive trapping, I see the BMP's helping to hold onto tools after many want to abolish the whole tool itself and that would happen without or with BMP"s!!!
Your crystal ball is not much at all, as I could have told you 20 years ago states would make changes to the rules and regs, yet back then we wouldn't have the BMP's to blame it on now would we?
You forget species populations have alot to do with it as well, look at deer hunting rules and regs 25 years ago and now, who would have thought with the anti hunting crowds we would be afforded more liberial hunting opportunitys and new weapons in use in many states for the first time? Game depts are not dumb and will use trappers and hunters as the tool to reduce populations as it is the most cost effective measure to the states to do so. The key will be to have the numbers of people to be able to help solve the problem along with regs that favor participation in the control of that species.
How did many states get a 365 day a year coyote season and why?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 19, 2006 16:07:37 GMT -6
I know! I know! its cause the the bmps, right??????
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 19, 2006 18:54:56 GMT -6
No just as many other issues it has zero to do with the BMP's, it has to do with a critter that can cause problems getting to populated and allowing harvest by many and giving them ample time to do so. The longer the season the bigger the harvest and at a low cost to the state.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 19, 2006 19:26:42 GMT -6
so why do states that have never had a coyote problem have no season or protection on them?
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 20, 2006 0:46:28 GMT -6
You forget species populations have alot to do with it as well, look at deer hunting rules and regs 25 years ago and now, who would have thought with the anti hunting crowds we would be afforded more liberial hunting opportunitys and new weapons in use in many states for the first time? Game depts are not dumb and will use trappers and hunters as the tool to reduce populations as it is the most cost effective measure to the states to do so. The key will be to have the numbers of people to be able to help solve the problem along with regs that favor participation in the control of that species. How did many states get a 365 day a year coyote season and why? You dont get out much,do you.Liberal hunting laws??Here in WI,everybody,including the DNR is complaining we have too many deer,and now we have CWD in parts of the herd,they have extended seasons and special seasons now,I'll give you that.But one thing the DNR did is start banning bait in parts of the state and restricting other areas,that dont even have a CWD case.It has hunters divided claiming bait is unethical now.And the DNR don't have any proof that baiting is a cause or even spreads CWD,alot feel baiting and feeding kept CWD at bay because it kept deer from herding up in large numbers,instead of the little clusters they have now.Since the bait restrictions,license sales have dropped some,especially for bow hunting.Some guys dont know how to hunt without bait,so they just eliminated a viable management tool,along with dividing hunters. I wonder what will happen when someone catches the wrong dog in a snare.You can just about guess,and the BMP's will be right there to get you CS because it's easier for the public to swallow and a compromise.And poor fluffy will be made a martyr,despite the fact it's owner was negligent in controling his pet.And the trapper once again loses another valuable tool. WI. has a year round coyote season,just like skunks,because there considered varmints.Nothing less and nothing more.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 20, 2006 4:50:58 GMT -6
so why do states that have never had a coyote problem have no season or protection on them? I don't know of any state that has coyotes that they have not caused problems in? Be it domestic or wild species. The threat is there and states take a pro active approach with the coyote and knowing his past.
But one thing the DNR did is start banning bait in parts of the state and restricting other areas,that don't even have a CWD case.It has hunters divided claiming bait is unethical now.And the DNR don't have any proof that baiting is a cause or even spreads CWD,alot feel baiting and feeding kept CWD at bay because it kept deer from herding up in large numbers,instead of the little clusters they have now.Since the bait restrictions,license sales have dropped some,especially for bow hunting.Some guys don't know how to hunt without bait,so they just eliminated a viable management tool,along with dividing hunters.
Many states don't have baiting with CWD because data does show the saliva is an excellent way to spread the disease. Baiting has long been a topic of discussion and will continue to be so. If your deer population is high and your baiting in the fall and early winter you don't think deer concentration At a bait station would include many animals?
Some guys don't know how to hunt without bait? Come on now, that is one lame excuse. Look at your deer numbers and the very nature of whitetail deer using the same trails systems and feeding at pretty close to the same times or traveling at the same times each day. WT are not hard to pattern compared to many other species, if you need bait to have success at WT hunting I would say spend more time in the field, especially with the deer numbers we have today compared to 25- 30 years ago!
I wonder what will happen when someone catches the wrong dog in a snare.You can just about guess,and the BMP's will be right there to get you CS because it's easier for the public to swallow and a compromise.And poor fluffy will be made a martyr,despite the fact it's owner was negligent in controlling his pet.And the trapper once again loses another valuable tool.
Our state has been there and guess what? The trapper took some heat from the public, the mis informed ones and the Dept then banned dog walking on GPA's during hunting, trapping seasons unless there on a leash or in the field actively hunting. Chalk one up for the sportsman.
IA had a deal with a 220, trapper was legal and the dog owner was walking his dog on private property and Fido took a hit, then it falls onto the landowner does he value the trapper more than the dog walker? Again the trapper took heat in the local paper, but he was within the law, BMP's or Not in these kinds of situations you will have issues, you think the BMP's will actually make these kinds of issues worse? NO WAY!
WI. has a year round coyote season,just like skunks,because there considered varmints.Nothing less and nothing more.
There is more, ask yourself why is the coyote listed as a varmint species?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 20, 2006 6:06:43 GMT -6
please show the damage reports, both on domestic species and wild in states like MN, WS, etc. from coyotes.
thanks.
A coyote killing a pheasant isn't "causing damage"
Unless of course you are one of those people that puts one animal above another in value and worth?
Walt Disney did that, so you are in good company.
do you think bmps will make any of those issues (dead dog)BETTER?
nonsense.
if so, how?
I know you once lived in Iowa, but that doesn't make you an expert on MN, WI and other states conditions, laws, and mores.
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