Just to help understand the BMP/ NTA relationship

[robertw]

This is from Dave Sollmans Jan 06 report.

US ANSI TAG- The United States American National Standards Institute, Technical Advisory Group dues were recently paid by NTA under its capacity as TAG Administrator. Dues were over $3000 plus and we expect to recoup less then half of that amount to be sent in by the various individuals who make up the ANSI TAG. NTA spent over a week trying to set up a separate bank account when it was learned that the Wildlife Management Institute (WMI) was no longer willing to act as the TAG banker. We also learned that do to new Patriot Act laws, setting up a separate bank account was not going to be possible. Having WMI handle the TAG finances was thought to make animal welfare groups more willing to help pay for TAG activities but was found to have no bearing on their financial participation. NTA has set up a restricted fund specifically to carry out its responsibilities as the TAG Administrator. This account will be monitored and administered by the TAG Treasurer, Gordon Batchelor and TAG Chair Tom Krause.

[dj88ryr]

You can bet then, that aside from FTA having a brain and not rubber stamping a bunch of bad science, NTA probably had something to do with leaving FTA out of the loop, how else could the Dave's report to trappers in an upcoming issue how NTA, got the BMPs under control, when they really are nothing more than kneepad heros for a bunch of vets and people with an eye on eliminating trapping.

[SgtWal]

I'm "Cornfused". Can a banker tell me how the Patriot Act would stop someone from setting up a bank account?
As I understand it the only restriction is on accounts with offshore access. Why would they need this?



wayne

[robertw]

SgtWal;"I'm "Cornfused". Can a banker tell me how the Patriot Act would stop someone from setting up a bank account?
As I understand it the only restriction is on accounts with offshore access. Why would they need this?"

I can not answer this....Considering some of the players involved and their past history it does make me very suspicious though.

[sinrud]

My personal opinion is:

1) States make regulations on false information created in “Education Manuals”. 2) BMP picks up this information as being “truth” and factual and incorporates it into “recommendations” where it is adopted by other states. 3) BMP used Tom’s “Dynamite Snares and Snaring” book containing personal opinions assumed as facts and some false misinformation as their “bible” and guide for studies. 4) BMP conducts studies based on what they think is accurate information and make recommendations accordingly. 5) Tom Krause is the TAG Administrator. 6) Tom is writing the new NTA Handbook. 7) Since Tom is the TAG Administrator and the NTA works closely with the BMP I would assume the new NTA Handbook will be a useful tool for TAG and the BMP. 8) The new NTA Handbook is saying 7x7 is good for “holding snares” and 1x19 is good for “killing snares” based on a table created from one persons experience. 9) The BMP will most likely “recommend” 7x7 cable only for “land snares” (cable restraints) based on one persons experience.

I wonder how “scientific” this is! I see a very close connection between NTA, BMP and State Agencies. So, to me, it looks like this. BMP uses misinformation to conduct studies. States make regulations based on misinformation. BMP adopts State misinformation and adds it to what they have, create new recommendations and then distributes it back to states who use it to make new regulations. New material is coming down the line with more misinformation to solidify what is already known to be improper.

The relationship as I see it: State Agencies - IAFWA/BMP - NTA - (and of course) all those “highly” qualified writers out there that know more than anyone else are a bunch of feather gatherers.

The thought that 1x19 (single strand) is not a proper cable for “holding” devices (live capture) is ridiculous because it’s been done for over half a century.

What do we have? An end run around the truth based on a personal opinion and the concept that only multi strand cable is good for holding snares while both can be used for killing snares.

Half truths, personal opinion, conclusions based on lack of evidence (studies) and . . . .!

[trappnman]

and those half truths, incomplete studies and limited opinions as fact.... are what makes the coon bmps corrupt.

[trappincoyotes39]

1) States make regulations on false information created in “Education Manuals”. 2) BMP picks up this information as being “truth” and factual and incorporates it into “recommendations” where it is adopted by other states. 3) BMP used Tom’s “Dynamite Snares and Snaring” book containing personal opinions assumed as facts and some false misinformation as their “bible” and guide for studies. 4) BMP conducts studies based on what they think is accurate information and make recommendations accordingly.



8) The new NTA Handbook is saying 7x7 is good for “holding snares” and 1x19 is good for “killing snares” based on a table created from one persons experience. 9) The BMP will most likely “recommend” 7x7 cable only for “land snares” (cable restraints) based on one persons experience.

I wonder how “scientific” this is! I see a very close connection between NTA, BMP and State Agencies. So, to me, it looks like this. BMP uses misinformation to conduct studies. States make regulations based on misinformation. BMP adopts State misinformation and adds it to what they have, create new recommendations and then distributes it back to states who use it to make new regulations. New material is coming down the line with more misinformation to solidify what is already known to be improper.

The relationship as I see it: State Agencies - IAFWA/BMP - NTA - (and of course) all those “highly” qualified writers out there that know more than anyone else are a bunch of feather gatherers.

[robertw]

Everybody should go back and read Sinruds post above! Lots of good factual information in it that every trapper needs to be aware of!

[trappnman]

I agree.

Acceptance of the bmps by trappers is still an open question.

Knowing the facrs is more than knowing the propaganda.

[trappincoyotes39]

1) States make regulations on false information created in “Education Manuals”.

If your state makes trapping regs off of a manual I feel for you. Most get biologist,trapper orgs,trappers and Co's involved if any good. They hold public cooment hearings and listen to the people involved if you have a decent run game dept. I would like to know the states you are referring too?

BMP picks up this information as being “truth” and factual and incorporates it into “recommendations” where it is adopted by other states.

Trapping rules and regs very state to state and for reasons which are many,they have been around alot longer than the BMP's. If some states had rules/regs they don't like work to get them changed as many states have had luck in doing so.

3) BMP used Tom’s “Dynamite Snares and Snaring” book containing personal opinions assumed as facts and some false misinformation as their “bible” and guide for studies.
Think so? How and why?

) The BMP will most likely “recommend” 7x7 cable only for “land snares” (cable restraints) based on one persons experience.

What? Did you know that cable restraints where tested in 4 states this past winter? Did you know that 3 different 1x19 configurations where tested along with 7x7 having 2 different configurations? ADC washer locks,cam locks NWRC type and thompson "relaxing" lock. That adds up to one person?

I see a very close connection between NTA, BMP and State Agencies. So, to me, it looks like this. BMP uses misinformation to conduct studies. States make regulations based on misinformation.

That is called working together. Can you prove otherwise? If you can I would love to hear the facts.

BMP adopts State misinformation and adds it to what they have, create new recommendations and then distributes it back to states who use it to make new regulations. New material is coming down the line with more misinformation to solidify what is already known to be improper.

How? What states have made these new regulations based off of the misinformation? You noticed the BMP committe did their own testing on cable restraints without just taking the word of a few states that tried it and also 2 states PA and WI where involved in the latest testing to gain further results and knowledge.

The thought that 1x19 (single strand) is not a proper cable for “holding” devices (live capture) is ridiculous because it’s been done for over half a century

That is why it was tested to see how it does perform!!!! Are the results in? Do you have the final data on this testing? Please fill us in if you have that information.

Half truths, personal opinion, conclusions based on lack of evidence (studies)

With all respect sinrud the same could be said for the majority of what you posted as well.

[robertw]

Trappincoyotes37;"That is why it was tested to see how it does perform"

Was it...or was it tested to avoid a law suit by manufacturers that were being unfairly discriminated against and denied a fair chance to market their products?

[trappnman]

1) States make regulations on false information created in “Education Manuals”.

true. It happens all the time.

2) BMP picks up this information as being “truth” and factual and incorporates it into “recommendations” where it is adopted by other states.

also true-

3) BMP used Tom’s “Dynamite Snares and Snaring” book containing personal opinions assumed as facts and some false misinformation as their “bible” and guide for studies.

You think not? You think a personal book doesn't contain personal opinion?

[trappincoyotes39]

Robert I doubt that highly. Also you keep bringing up the unfair opportunity to market products, how does the BMP exactly do that? Wouldn't that be more by state law and rules and regs at the very "BEST"?

If I'm fur trapping and like 1x19 cable I would continue to purchase such cable as long as it is legal in my state and work to make sure it stays legal if needed. Snare cable is at .05 cents a foot and I wouldn't let the BMP's scare me off from buying what I know to work best and to ensure that the powers that be know there is a differance between live restraint and killing snares. Some states choose not to open that can and that is up to those trappers of those states to offer up or inject changes with good dialog with their Game Dept heads and the game commisions. BMP's are recommendations and the weight they carry will vary.

1) States make regulations on false information created in “Education Manuals”.

true. It happens all the time.
Tman can you give me a factual case of this? What reg and what state?

2) BMP picks up this information as being “truth” and factual and incorporates it into “recommendations” where it is adopted by other states.

also true-

Do you have a true case scenario of this as well?

) BMP used Tom’s “Dynamite Snares and Snaring” book containing personal opinions assumed as facts and some false misinformation as their “bible” and guide for studies.

You think not? You think a personal book doesn't contain personal opinion?

Sure his book will have his opinions in it, but what proof is there that his book is and was the guidlines for the cable restraint BMP's testing protocol?

[trappnman]

like the NTA, the evidence is there. I have no time to anyones research. Regarding states and what they accept as fact, take some time and research SD.

I'll say flat out, I ditto Sinruds posts. Examples of all you have asked, are there.

Im more and more against the bmps with each passing day...and my friends..this is full circle. The more I knew, the more distrustfull and unhappy I was (am).

One the surface, the coyote ones look good.

On any surface, the coon stink

in the snares, sinrud summed it up.

1/3 ain't even bad- its terrible.....

[trappincoyotes39]

take some time and research SD What do you mean by this?