Surveys and facts

[SgtWal]

Ever since the mid 1960's we have been haunted by a survey done on trappers and trapping.
The survey found that trappers were under educated, low income, people who harvested fur in a careless manner.
They also found that only about 1 animal in 10 was a "target" animal.
This sounded bad and still does until you know the rest of the story.
Many trappers were students and kids. Thus they had no high school education or serious income. YET
Many had trapped less than 5 years and thus were less skilled. AT THAT TIME.
And most damning of all the survey considered any animal for which the trap was not specificaly set to be a non target. Such as a mink or raccoon in a muskrat set.
By carefully editing the way the results were handled this survey became a major thorn for trappers to overcome.
Why hasn't the information from the BMP monitored trapping studies been put together and released?
With a 90% target catch rate it would help overcome some of the bad being said still today.
If the BMP's are such a great tool and offer so much help to trappers why isn't a trapper organization trying to get them codified into states rules?
I keep thinking something is wrong here.

wayne

[trappincoyotes39]

If the BMP's are such a great tool and offer so much help to trappers why isn't a trapper organization trying to get them codified into states rules?

Because it is up to each state to decided what is and is not for them as far as trapping laws go!!! I can't believe your statement really. The BMP's are a reference and guideline and if some states want to take them to that degree then it is up to the state Game Dept's and trappers and Trappers Assoc to do so, not the BMP committee and also they are not finished testing for all species, why put the cart before the horse? Why not use them as really intended in my mind as good base lines and guidelines for trappers with less experience, I mean look at the fox and coyote BMP"s how many experienced trappers aren't using the majority of what has been put into print already?

It is not "just" about what gets a passing grade from the BMP's it is also alot about what these studies show as far as being effective and limiting damage to the intended species and what can the general public convey about trapping as a whole from such studies being done and the amount of time and effort and data collected from the BMP's, that is as important as the traps that passed as far as outcome and the true value of it all.

Why hasn't the information from the BMP monitored trapping studies been put together and released?
With a 90% target catch rate it would help overcome some of the bad being said still today.

Why not give them time to get that information out to people? The problem is so many want instant results from all information, it takes time to process and deliver information in a clear, concise manner and you want that to be as factual as possible and professionally done as well I would think, also if done in a correct manner it will beat out a news blurb about the intended information by a bunch, it will have a much more lasting effect.

[trappnman]

If you have time to compile statistics, to publish bmps "books"- you certainly have the time to write and add a paragraph.

You make it sound like the bmp folks have the sun rise out of their butts each day and they can do no wrong. THATS the trouble with the bmp committee- they think they are infallible

[jeffc]

Trappincoyotes37 - Are you a Government Trapper?

[SgtWal]

I never called for the BMP folks to push the BMPs toward codification.
My question was why, out of the 2 major national organizations, 50 state organizations, and assorted local chapters and such, hasn't anyone take this logical step? If these will save trapping then why aren't trappers actively lobbying for them?
At least in the states where trapping is lost or tightly restricted, I would expect the trappers to march on the State house with the BMPs held out like talismans to ward off the evil ARs.
Yet I don't see this happening, or even see it proposed anywhere.
Why?


wayne

[trappincoyotes39]

Sgt wal MONEY it takes money to gain back those rights when lost and how is the NTA doing? How many state Assoc in states with NO rights fairing with money in the coffers? If they can roundup dollars to get it back into a court I can tell you they would be fools not to use the information provided by the BMP"s. The time and effort put forth and the data would be a great addition in a court of law. The anti's would have what to backup their claim of inhumane and non target issues? Not to mention this is not just a trapper deal but many walks of life had input into the BMP's and even Vets have signed off on all printed so far.

Why wouldn't you take this into court? Better yet if you have an attorney friend ask him if this information and the creditability would not be a BIG PLUS for trapping? This is a no brainier in my book, who wouldn't want this information to protect trapping or gain back trapping in states that have nothing at all or limited to cage traps only?

JeffC-Trappincoyotes37 - Are you a Government Trapper? What is the jist of this question?

[SgtWal]

I spent many a day at the State House lobbying for issues my Union supported. I hand carried photo copies of papers supporting our position around and gave them to legislators, and if possible, said a few words about who I was and what it was I wanted them to look at.
The cost was gas and food money. And some copy paper.
To your knowledge are any trappers doing this in support of the BMP's? Are any trying to get this information into the hands of the people who write, or can change, the laws?
Support should come easy if the data is convincing enough. Enough support in the legislature can sway the F&W folks.
It doesn't need that much money, just folks that believe in and want to make a change.
Is this happening? Do trappers support this enough to pick them up and use them?
If not why?

wayne

[trappincoyotes39]

Sgt wal it is not that easy, many states passed public reforendum votes to ban trapping you must have deep pockets to get a ballot vote going and to advertise the information as well. The state I know that is trying is Mass and I can't tell you if they are using this information yet or not? Maybe someone from Mass could enlighten us on that. I would say they darn well should and I know some case studys that the BMP's talk about relates directly to the Mass issue.

[jeffc]

The answer affects how I view your opinion on the BMP's I was up for an Debate earlyer but I'm not anymore so you don't even need to answer the question

Jeff

[trappnman]

the gist of the question- is do you have a vested interest in acceptance of the bmps?

[jeffc]

Exactly Steve, being a Gov trapper would explain at least partly to me why your such a cheerleader for them.
They don't affect YOU. I worked for the Govt long enough after I got out of the marines to know that they do what ever they want. Being a Govt trapper you can't keep fur so why in the world would you REALLY care about the coon BMP's. It doesn't affect YOU it affects ME and many other serious trappers. I seriously doubt that a Govt trapper traps any coons in numbers and I'm sure they aren't doing it in the water so if you were a Govt trapper your opinion on the coon BMP's and others mean squat to me cause you have no REAL vested interest in the outcome. And as far as answering the question.....I think you already did

Jeff

[trappincoyotes39]

Look Jeff I have kids 4 of them and I want other kids to have the opportunity to set trap line, not next fall but 10 years from now, 20 and so on. Because it doesn't effect me in "all facets" doesn't mean I don't care about the future generations of trapping.

I think so many lose sight of this and care only about themselves today and tomorrow and don't look down the road. The BMP's are to help trapping in the PR area and also to educate those not familiar with trapping. The data will help trappers today,tomorrow and for years to come. Many good biologist know that trapping is a tool that will be needed in many years to come and they see a need to help protect and enlighten themselves on this subject.

I started out as a fur trapper, I continue to help anyone looking to get into trapping, I put on talks at schools and also 4-h clubs on trapping and the more people I have contact with, the better trapping is seen in a positive light! If there are NO trappers then what is to stop antis from getting states to adopt anti trapping legislation? No public outcry to keep something around is not a real motivator for a legislative body to keep something on the books.

The BMP's are to deal with how the public perceives trapping, to find out data on traps and what they actually do to intended species, and have science with it. Name any other time in trapping history were we have had such data available to anyone who would like to see it? NEVER. That is a plus not a minus, we have spoke for years on what laminations, baseplate's, and the operation of a foothold trap but we have NEVER had any science to back it up, we had he Say's/she Say's with the antis and on occasion that has not worked IE: Arizona, Mass, Colorado etc.

I had no bias coming into this but after being apart of it and talking with people I saw the BMP's as something that would help trapping as a whole. I feel strongly this will help trapping and trappers for years to come. Again recommendations and voluntary are key words in all of this, yet so many want to take the brush and paint it as all going the route of enforcement, I do not see that being a big issue and I will ask you Jeff would you take the list of BMP "passed" equipment if you lived in Colorado, Arizona or anyother state that has lost the opportunity to trap? Wouldn't it be nice to see kids in those state have the opportunity like their father or grandparents had to run a trap line? Or just be in this for "ME" and what I want?

In fact I should be one that shouldn't give a crap right? Because as you say, I can do whatever? So why would a guy that can do "whatever" get involved in this? I'll tell you why one last time the FUTURE OF TRAPPING AND TRAPPERS!

[Steve Gappa]

to support false and misleading data, as is present in the coon bmps and certainly the snaring language- is not doing trapping or anyone any favors.

[bblwi2]

Yes I have a vested interest in BMPS but I would be very selective in what I would use and where.
If WI was experiencing an issue I would contact our Fur Bearer specialist John Olsen or Dave Hamilton and have them bullet point a paper that talks about the # of states, trappers, catches, trap nights, low % of domestics etc would be very valuable at any level of government or agencies.
I would certainly leave out all of the highly controversial portions that trappers continually debate, argue and find fault with. That is not all the fault of trappers but I do not want to use any information that has such a volatile process as the injury scores, trap types, sizes etc.

SgtWal you bring up a very good and excellent point and observation.
Those states, or the NTA etc. that sit around trying to invent the right video, the right person to say the words or wait till someone better qualified are going to ride in on a white horse and save their rights have their heads so far up their rectums that the can still eat and that is why they are still alive.
Boils my blood to hear all this talk about money etc. Yes there are times when money is critical, so are good spokespersons But the real way is
1. Get to know your local assemblymen and senators. Talk to them not just about trapping but all issues important to you and them.
2. Know your local DNR staff persons and or others.
3. Be sincere, honest and upfront with people. Draft your statements in your own way and read them or give the presentation in a more open way if comfortable. Politicians greatly prefer being solicited by local, sincere, voters than polished hired guns etc.
4. Follow up say thank you for your vote or your effort.
5. These things cost almost NOTHING!!! You don't need a war chest to fight a war if you know how to prevent war with good diplomacy.
After really reading BMPs for the last 3-4 years and getting more involved with National Trapping issues and associations I give thanks every night I live and trap in Wisconsin. I don't care about our Cable restraints and holier than thou attitude many feel we have, or the restricted conis or the short check times. We have not had a ballot issue, or referendum or another sporting group sue us for almost 15 years. Nothing ever leaves committee any more. We don't make headlines we don't make the news we just make a difference for trappers and sports persons.
why spend millions for reactive BS when you can spend 1,000s and these issues don't make the radar screens?

Bryce

[trappnman]

bryce -the point might also be made that the WI association has backed off from any fights, even the NR issue. And in doing so, have lost trapping rights that other states take for granted.

I'm not saying this is what should or shouldn't have been done... it just is.