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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 4, 2005 16:21:11 GMT -6
No, other schools are going to more student friendly grades, as to not seprate Above average, good efficantcy, and less than ideal efficantcy, that way those that don't try or get the right help don't "feel" bad about themselves and what they can or can't achieve, kind of like the way you want the BMP scores to ebb and flow with the species at hand? We wouldn't want poor tommy feeling bad because he didn't put forth the effort of Joe, but yet will close the grading gap to make tommy feel better about himself, the reason we have no child left behind. Sounds kind of fimilar like the BMP relizing after all things tried we still can't get the 1.5 to pass so we need to change the threshold to get it to pass!
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Post by trappnman on Apr 4, 2005 17:56:37 GMT -6
When I was a teacher- I went to a system that eliminated A-F---because I felt it was crap.
I suggest you leave this analogy alone...Or I'll have to give you an F ...Or perhaps a N for nonsense...
stay on the subject...
Blind obedience to an ideal is great- and I applaud you for sticking to it.
But sooner or later- its time to take the glasses off.
Do you even read any posts but your own? bah- why bother, right? you know what you know.
CAPS BECAUSE I'M SHOUTING-
IF YOU HAVE EVEN A SMALL AMOUNT OF COON EXPERIENCE, WHICH ONCE UPON A TIME YOU CLAIMED YOU HAD, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE CRITERIA SET UP FOR BMP TESTS ALLOWS THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF CHEWING OCCUR.
STAKING SOLID WITHOUT OVERHEAD COVER- ONCE AGAIN, ANY EXPERIENCE AT ALL- AT ALL- SHOWS YOU WHAT HAPPENS.
it doesn't take a genius to determine that- It takes coon.
To try other methods is only COMMON SENSE
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Post by trappnman on Apr 4, 2005 18:07:35 GMT -6
I find it laughable that you don't accept the snaring bmps- to restrain animals- after all- a dead animal is a score of 100, right?
you seem to overlook that time and time again. You accuse me of accepting only some bmps and not others- yet rather than own up to it- you try to rationalize it.
A thinking person looks at each test individually- and decides on the "facts" or lack therof- which to accept and reject.
just as you rejected the snaring bmps- which btw, are being passed as LAW in several states.
and to keep repeating the mantra of "recommendations, not law" is being as silly as you can get.
Its going to happen- Montanas effort was just the beginning and every trapper out there better head the wakeup call.
I predict with 10 years- many, many states will have apopted the bmps as law-
Write it down.
If i'm wrong, i'll say so.
If i'm right- and all indications point to it becoming true- trapping except as an ADC profession will be a thing of the past.
I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by trapperjoemo on Apr 4, 2005 22:11:58 GMT -6
T-Man, I agree with your prediction. And I too hope you are wrong. I`m almost to the point of thinking that it`s not going to do any good, or be of any benifit to start kids trapping anymore. What a dissapointment they are in for! Better to let them play soccer and video games, and hang out on the street.
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Post by Hamilton on Apr 5, 2005 6:59:45 GMT -6
Trappnman ... the snare bmps?
I think you must mean "Cable Restraint" regulations, adopted by Wisconsin, Missouri, and now Pennsylvania ... maybe more states down the road.... states where they are now PROHIBITED.
What you are conveniently forgetting is that use of snares on land in Wisconsin, Missouri and Pennsylvania was OUTLAWED prior to the testing done in Wisc and Missouri.
There were no land snare ALLOWED AT ALL!!
BMPs allowed it to happen in Missouri .... never would have happened without them in my lifetime- guarantee.
Missouri is a dog state .... more dogs in Missouri than about any Midwestern state .... and the image of dogs getting killed in snares hung in fences is a strong force ... it took several years of work, but we got it done.
Don't whine to me that BMPs are putting restrictions on trappers.
The restrictions won't come from BMPs ... but they will come someday ... stiff-necked trappers need to realize this isn't 1960 or even 1980 anymore. Wish it was.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 5, 2005 7:50:35 GMT -6
restraining isn't snaring- that correct. Yet you yourself mention it as being the same in your last post.
- even the WS DNR said "very few" are "taking advantage" of this restraining "opportunuity."
Wonder why.
and there is STILL no snaring allowed on land in WS and the other states you mention.
image of dogs hanging in snares- show me facts.
Iowa has unrestricted snaring for the most part- and probably has as many dogs hunting as MO- certainly many more pheasant dogs- Whens the last time you read of a dead dog in a snare in Iowa? Or SD? Or Mo for that matter.
So its come to this- people that think bmps are hurting trapping- live in the past?
And anyone that doesn't agree with you is whining?
Seems the only ones that vigorously support them have vested interests in their perpetuation.
stiff necked trappers see the writing on the wall.
give me one example how bmps with foothoods have made any difference with the public or in changing laws for the better. You can't.
Except for a few trappers and the people on the bmp payroll- who knows they even exist?
I realize you put a lot of time and effert into the bmp project- but that doesn't mean that the bmps don't have to stand on their own mewrits.
and I detest the argument that if I accept 1 or 2 bmps that I have to accept them all. Frankly, thats as poor a reason to accept something as is "because I said so"
the coon bmps went ahead on preconceived notions of what was "right and wrong". Taking into no account the reasons for chewing and any attempt to work with those reasons to reduce chewing.
And thats a fact- based on your protocol.
But to change now- would make your past efforts seem futile- but not so. Your past efforts showed that CERTAIN METHODS (is your current protocol) canot reduce chewing.
and everyone on the bmp committee is satisfied.
Accept that the protocols used cannot reduce chewing- and open your mind to other possibliites.
But no- this is the way we did it and its set in stone.
Why even consider that someone could possibly come up with a better way? Nah, that just wouldn't do. After all- you did all that could be done.
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Post by Hamilton on Apr 5, 2005 9:16:51 GMT -6
Steve ... we had two dogs killed this year in Missouri in illegal snares. Made the paper, and as usual, trappers took the heat, as did MDC.
Missouri ‘aint Iowa. We have 5.5 million people in Missouri, and all kinds of dogs running here, year-round. Don't get me wrong, I am not supporting dogs have the right to run wherever they want. But this Missouri; we have a statue of a dog at the courthouse where a famous court battle was waged over the right of dogs to do what they want to.
Snares on land in Missouri will not pass, no matter what the facts are, because perception is reality. Cable restraints and the alternative facts they provided opened the door a little.
BMPs didn't restrict snare use in Wisconsin, Missouri, or Pennsylvania, but it did open the door to one limited use of cable in a way that has been proven to be safe around dogs, and can reduce injuries to coyotes. That is a fact.
I am not saying you have no right to question BMPs. .. that is what this is all about, isn't it? But lets debate real issues, not make stuff up....
If we could stick closer to the issues, and not blend fact with fiction, we'll enjoy this banter much more.
The raccoon BMP protocol DID NOT CAUSE RACCOONS TO CHEW.
To my knowledge, raccoon research has been done by four-five different investigators since about 1970, and in every single one, raccoons have scored badly in the 1 1/2 coil spring. Those studies were conducted in a variety of locations, and by a variety of investigators, using a variety of trappers.... using a variety of "protocols".
If there was much variation (that is, raccoons sometimes chew, other times they do not- depending upon trap setting techniques) ... you'd think we'd have seen some variation in the data. We don't.
We are open to other ideas (I will propose your trap setting protocol, but no promises) ..... but the purpose of my presence on your forum was to provide some factual information about the BMP program, and the data, which prior to this was just being speculated about.
Now that you've seen the data, and it doesn't agree with your limited experience, you try to make it look like it is hogwash.
Here's some data to consider:
Trap Type Study/ Date N Trap Set Type Injury Score* (Ave.) Deaths Hypo/ drowning Self-directed Biting (%)
1.5 Coil Nettles et al. MD (1970s) 20 Water 163.6 65 % Notable**
1.5 Coil Berchielli and Tuller NY (1980) 29 Land sets ---- 0% 38 %
1.5 Coil Tuller NY (1984) 14 Land sets unk. unk. 23 %
1.5 Coil Olsen et al. NY, MN (1986) 35 Land sets 54 % unk. 23 %***
1.5 Coil Olsen et al. GA, LA, MS, TX (1986) 98 Land sets unk. 57 % 41 %***
1.5 Coil 6" chain BMP proj. MO, KS, WI (1997) 84 Mixed (73% water) 105.1 7.7 % 37 %
1.5 Coil 6" chain BMP proj. SC, NC, GA (1997) 87 Mixed (71% land) 87.4 0 % 39 %
1.5 Coil 6" chain BMP proj. OH (1999) 38 Water 92.5 7.3 % 31.6%
1.5 Coil 30" chain BMP proj. OH (1999) 34 Water 83.7 10.5 % 32.3 %
Here’s the NTA study summary that I posted awhile back on the other thread .....
Trap Type Lower 95% CI Ave. Cumulative Injury Threshold < 55 points Upper 95% CI Sample Size
1.5 C w/ 0.135 springs 74.2 87.4 100.6 82.9% 73 27%
1.5 C w/ 0.125 spr. 85.1 98.5 112.0 79.5% 76 33%
1.5 C –DJ- one straight bar 57.6 71.8 86.0 87.2% 76 18%
Do raccoons chew? If you look at the averages of all the studies posted above, 33% of the raccoons chewed in these studies ….. I don’t have all of the protocols available at my fingertips …. But I can tell you that it wasn’t just our BMP protocol ….an average of 30% of the raccoons in those studies also chewed, and that was prior to any of our BMP work.
If your setting techniques are the KEY, the one and only method that will keep raccoons from chewing, will that BMP satisfy trappers who need to set 1 1/2 coil springs? How will that fly with trappers setting in small creeks in Iowa, Ill, Indiana, Ohio and Missouri, where the bulk of the raccoons come from?
Wonder what an otter would do with your pole drag?
Nice chatting with you this morning..... maybe see you down at Johnnies someday.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 5, 2005 9:32:52 GMT -6
two dogs killed this year in Missouri in illegal snares
wonder how many dogs, cats, other wildklife killed by illegal hunters?c
The raccoon BMP protocol DID NOT CAUSE RACCOONS TO CHEW.
my mistake- allowed them to CHEW MORE
staked traps and short chains = chewing- as your bmp results clearly points out. Who could argue with that?
Dave- heres a fact- I AGREE with all your data. I'm surprised it isn't worse. I don't argue the DATA at all. Never have. Never will. Its the protocol that led to the data. And its not that i feel the protocol wasn't followed- indeed, I'm convinced it was. But GIGO.
Don't give up- this debate has sparked a lot of interest from the forum members- don't try to convince me- convince them. I aprreciate your time and if nothing esle- our dialogue has caused us to think about the big picture.
if I had otter to worry about- I'd drown them like I do most of my coons i nwater. We can't worry about other animals- we are looking fro the best method for individual species. Just like staking a coyote trap is acceptable for less injuries yet staking coon traps is not.
Heres the thing Dave- all your "water" tests allowed the coon to reach and sit on dry land. Don't you think this is condusive to making them chew more? In my limited experience, it does.
Does "N" equal sample size?
If hypothermia is such a problem in some areas- then a two tiered (northern, southern) bmps would be the obvious choice. My experince shows out of many, many hundreds of coon (when I used to trap Nov coon in water) zero hypothermia deaths.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 5, 2005 9:35:41 GMT -6
How will that fly with trappers setting in small creeks in Iowa, Ill, Indiana, Ohio and Missouri, where the bulk of the raccoons come from?
Dave- the answer is SIMPLE- keep the coon in water.
Since stress, etc was never considered or tested for- So is holding a coon in water- which I'm guessing most coon trappers do to avoid "pullouts"- not animane?
But that goes against the bmp protocol- and around we go....
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Post by Hamilton on Apr 5, 2005 9:51:19 GMT -6
Steve... the first year we did the raccoon study, (and see studies listed above), traps were set wherever and however trappers wanted to.... half were in the water, half were on land....
The second year in the Midwest study, a new protocol ... ALL were in water...
Holding them in water did result in a high percentage of hyperthermia- dead raccoons in a Restraining Trap.
So NTA trapping experts, showing concern that our protocol ...holding raccoons in water..... led to poor scores and dead raccoons.
So we changed the protocol in the next BMP protocol study, and learned that it didn't matter ... water or land ... raccoons had the same scores.
SO then we changed protocol AGAIN... the famous NTA protocol study .... and guess what.... no change.
so don't say, "that would be against the BMP protocol" .... because there is no one-size fits all "BMP Protocol".
So now you come along and propose .... yet another set of protocols ....
Is there a pattern?
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Post by trappnman on Apr 5, 2005 10:30:57 GMT -6
Dave- are you tell me that raccoons held in water with the trap below the surface chew the same as coon staked on land? go to: coyotesrus.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=11117773393rd pic down how much do you think this coon chewed or injured itself? "So NTA trapping experts, showing concern that our protocol ...holding raccoons in water..... led to poor scores and dead raccoons." I'll bet all the money I have- that holding a trap below water will not allow very much if ANY chewing- because in hundreds of coon- I know it to be a fact. you are welcome to come along on any line I run. dead raccoons? in some areas apparently- NOT SO in others. Unless I want them to be dead at the end of a slide. You keep mentioning NTA trapping experts. Who are they? Are they men that trap 500--1000 coon a year- or just men on a bmp committee? What I am saying- is that, based on my experience- that coon chew for several reasons. By addressing those reasons- you can reduce the chewing very extensively. If thats making a new protocol- so be it.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 5, 2005 15:36:33 GMT -6
Tman, Iowa does have snaring restrictions 8" maximum loop unless your within 30ft of water. Deer stops on all snares, bads are an addition but can't be used by themselves. I will state if one more dog ends up in a 220 in Iowa, you can kiss them goodbye on dry land! Even though the trapper might be 100% in the right, as mentioned public perception and the heat that comes of it, will surely make the Iowa DNR take action.The WI snaring isn't a BMP it was what one state decided on to allow some type of cable restraint device! I think of conibears and snares as tools to leave dead critters, not live restraint device, the less movement the better the performance of a snare or conibear. You state a score of 100 being bad, not with a conibear, the quicker the death the better the trap score! With snares I want quick, clean kill's and I ensure through the equipment I choose I acheive that, technique can help, but I lean more toward the proper equipment to achieve that quick kill, know matter the terrian. Will leave the teaching thing alone, as my wife who has a masters degree and has taught for 13 years will tell you the "new age" way of things is what is leading to kids being passed grade to grade, with lower test scores in the 90's than the previous 20 years! America falling further and further behind other countries.
IF YOU HAVE EVEN A SMALL AMOUNT OF COON EXPERIENCE, WHICH ONCE UPON A TIME YOU CLAIMED YOU HAD, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE CRITERIA SET UP FOR BMP TESTS ALLOWS THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF CHEWING OCCUR.
Yes I have some experiance, but why not use equipment that can be used in any circumstance that will give you the desired results, instead of making the situation fit the trap? Again I will state do you really want a draft that states in order for trap x to be used in a passing manner these are the things that must be done to acheive success? Which by the way Dave has stated many,many times chewing occurs in a big way with the 1.5 know matter the protocol used ever! How many ways till sunday do you want them to spend trying? If your protocol is tried and fails then what will your response be? AS far as the public, order a few copys of the videos that are out on BMP"s and show them to kids, adults,etc. I don't know the advertising budget for TV and radio, but the BMP final drafts can be had by many. I hope in time will see more print outside of trapping magazines, and the scope will broaden, but any state up against the wall can use the BMP's done so far and the final drafts as proof that we are concerned and we have tested our equipment to make sure it is the best we can have at this time. It' shows empathy a key word that many experts say you need in order to show people you trully care. We also need to convey how trapping benefits those in bigger cities and saves them money. Like or not this world is a "what have you done for me latley" place, that strikes home, and with the boom in nusiance animal control businesses in large metro areas, we can show the lack of animal control leads to problems for those in bigger cities as well. The BMP"s are a part of the whole process of trappers being proactive and getting out the truth backed by facts, that is the way to succeed, will never match anti's dollar for dollar!
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Post by trappnman on Apr 5, 2005 16:17:13 GMT -6
I guess its my masters against your wifes masters...deuce as Larry says.
i am unaware of any bmp videos. Where are they available?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 6, 2005 13:14:41 GMT -6
You can get them from the BMP website!!!
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Post by FWS on Apr 6, 2005 15:31:33 GMT -6
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