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Post by blakcoyote on Aug 22, 2005 9:52:05 GMT -6
Because some liberal vets in Sweden think drowning American coon is inhumane-
Exactly,I feel they should stay out of our management practices period and any other country when it comes to how we control our wildlife.
Good post Bryce.
I've said this before about BMP's,I was in favor of them when it all started,because like alot of other trappers,I was looking for a way to combat the anti's and non-trappers,and the BMP's looked like a good way to get the proof we need,out there,and show what we do is not inhumane.Now I'm undecided and mixed about the whole thing,because now it just seems it's just geared more to what is the best trap/method for trapping and then it will eventually be crammed down our throat.
Every trapper is different,and you could have 5 trappers use one type of trap,even same brand and setup,and I think you'd have different results due to whether,terrain or whatever.I just think that when this is all said and done we're going to be severely limited. So I think,the BMP's should have been used to show that traps are more humane that what has been.Look at big game hunting and how many different calibers are used,each one has it's own characteristics,some better,some not,but they get the job done,just depends on the individual behind it.
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Post by FWS on Aug 22, 2005 10:23:53 GMT -6
Problem there is that the U.S. set the precedence for imposing 'humane' and 'conservation' standards on wildlife and fisheries management on other nations decades ago. And that has not really changed.
In fact, the U.S. set the example the EU followed with their attempted fur ban with the MMPA and seal products in 1972.
And get this, the EU has been far more reasonable to deal with than the U.S. has been in regards to the needs of rural peoples who harvest living wild resources.
But most trappers are not aware of that.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 22, 2005 13:50:16 GMT -6
The money arguement isn't reallty an arguement. "We spent X number of $$$, but to get it right we have no funding?"
What does get it right mean? Means many different things to many different people.
Not flawed, just not the results all were wishing to see at this time.
the olsen scale has NO credibility Tell me why? This scale has been in use since at least the early 80's, it has history in other scientific studys, dealing directly with traps, and was started by a Dr Nettels of the U of georgia Vet med school, then added to by Olsen and Holmes. If you have a better injury scale by all means print it out! WE can't ask an animal how did that feel, the best we can do is use a scale that can be agreed to by all invovled and that has a track record in other testing.
If you think for one minute, that if trappers and trappers alone paid for, did all testing and all necocropsy that the anti's and a good portion of the general public wouldn't be raising an eyebrow to the validity and results, your off in never never land!
Foxtail how do we educate the general public? WE been down that road, people don't put trappers at the top of any list for crediable information, this has been proven through polling people, because without facts, science and having others invovled it looks one sided. WE all hear of global warming studies, ask how many really beleive it, why? becuase those doing the studies have a vested interest in the outcome, if we find no such thing happing, how do they keep getting funding to continue these studies on? Aagin the raised eyebrow thing at play in many,many cases, as there all in house one sided studys.
The BMP's are something people from both sides come to agreement on, and then published reports of the data are sent out, that lends far more creditbilty than the trappers going this alone and having results or the anti's doing there own study and publishing there results, how close do you think each would be to one another??? Not very and then the general public as the case now, doesn't put alot of creidance into either side.
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Post by edge on Aug 22, 2005 15:01:05 GMT -6
**Problem there is that the U.S. set the precedence for imposing 'humane' and 'conservation' standards on wildlife and fisheries management on other nations decades ago. And that has not really changed.**
Right as Rain.
Edge
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Post by FWS on Aug 22, 2005 18:28:15 GMT -6
We probably need a separate forum on this board to discuss "real" conservation politics and examine the history of it.
I can drag in some friends, foreign and domestic on that.
Same for looking at state issues, past and present, so that guys are aware of how things have worked for the last few decades.
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Post by foxtail on Aug 22, 2005 20:47:25 GMT -6
How?
Easy, instead of making 100,000 dollar videos, make bilboards advertising a website with the truth on it.
Etc, etc, etc.....
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Post by bblwi on Aug 22, 2005 20:53:12 GMT -6
I came to this thread late and I have not been able to add anything that is productive from my point of view. I did take the time to read the thread just prior to posting now. Lots of time, energy and yes anger and frustration just in the thread let alone the real World of traps and trapping. FWS, we may be in need of a thread that talks to our past and how we have dealt with trade, wildlife and conservation issues with our fellow countries over the past decades. the EU had a very vested interest in pushing for the hard line on North American Wild Fur. That is to take pressure off their highly subsidized and large ranch fur economy in northern Europe. We use other clubs on countries all the time and we call that good business. If we think that the 3 billion Asians who are just finding about fur and becoming a middle class are going to argue with us over such issues we are not very smart. They may be largley socialistic and also even Communist but they are not lazy or stupid. They will quickly build a large tame fur supply and then we will have a real hammer over us. The Chinese are tinkering in the lower end coon market and that should send a real scare into any Greek fur buyer or processor. With the economic clout that China has they could blow Greece out of the fur business in one season if they wanted to run some prices up and have them holding many high priced furs. Greece does not have the economic clout to play in the same league as the Chinese can and will do. Enough on economics my real concern here is the whole issue of BMP and or the lack there of.
There seems to be no real resolve for this issue and maybe it is being played that way to wind up as a dead end. It seems that anyone that has a wildlife biology degree is labeled at some point near an anti. I find that disconcerting to say the least. I studied ecology not trauma or injury scores. Both of our national organizations that speak for trappers are now not part of the process due to little to no trapper input. That is a political decision and maybe not an incorrect one but.... If our national organizations resist change until the studies meet their exact standards when will that day or time be? I find organizations that offer little or no good alternatives to examine the process of improving traps to offer better defense for trapping to be of less value to me than I had hoped for. If the organizations can not figure out how to lead trappers into the next century with improved equipment and methods they are probably not doing us much good service. We are really condeming the biologists on BMPS and yet one of the strong arguments against some of our more recent video productions was that wildlife biologists could not defend the tape. We either believe wildlife biologists add value to our cause or we do not. Or we are taking the prostitution approach and use their science and background on the issues we feel we want them to defend. I can now better see why so many other trappers from other states really voiced their dismay at the WI trappers when we changed our 220 policy. That was a political issue for us too, but I personally feel that for me and on my trapline that the new regulations were a good thing. If the BMP process was initiated because of an event that now is not an issue then maybe we will need to say stop and start over. Is there too much invested by some groups to stop? If the trapper organizations can not join back into the BMP process what do they plan to offer as an alternative? I would prefer that trapping issues and regulations be reviewed and studied by those with knowledge of trapping and wildlife. We need to find a way to find some common ground here. If not the laws will be offered by those with less working knowledge and functionality of the proposal. On the other hand if the two leading trapper organizations choose to hold firm and do little to nothing for a decade or two, then with development, property laws and zoning changes and continued inroads in our raw fur markets they will need to change nothing as there will be few trappers left in many of the coon producing states. The ADC road could well become the only trapping for many and then there will be BMPs you won't believe to work in that Public Relations nightmare.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 22, 2005 21:39:19 GMT -6
Foxtail that was one funny response LOL,Why didn't I think of that a billboard with a website? Wonder how many hits that would receive from the general public and the anti's each day?
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Post by foxtail on Aug 22, 2005 23:15:47 GMT -6
A lot more than we are getting now. I am dead serious though. If we did constructive stuff like that, kind of like a truthfull version of the "media sluts", we could go far towards getting the truth out.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 23, 2005 6:10:06 GMT -6
longivity doesn to make things correct.
please answer the most important questionm out there- are all animals considered the SAME under law, custom, etc?
Yes or no.
A simple, straight forward question, deserves a simple stright forward answer.
And more importantly- WHY is drowning acceptable for SOME animals, and not others.
They all breathe air.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 23, 2005 6:11:12 GMT -6
PS- those that have been involved in advocacy to the public with "unpopular" causes- know billboards are one of te most effectrive tools out there.
And yes, been there, been successful there. Ever hear of ABATE?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 23, 2005 13:24:22 GMT -6
No Tman there not, why is a deer poaching insadent worth 1000.00 or more and you can poach coons for a couple hundred bucks each? Why wouldn't all species have the same fine? Why is a Bald Eagle $ 25,000 plus big trouble, when the lowly wild turkey is less, he was real close to our National symbol, problem being with that line of thought is it has nothing to do with humane or inhumane. Public perception of value there!!! If your mistreating a dog or a cat or a horse or a pig there all the same fine I beleive, "crulity to animals", the only change is the amount of animals your hurting can up the fine and the court cost, but I don't beleive they have different fines for different animals. This deals with the humane issue.
Drowning I can't answer that, I wasn't sitting in on those meetings, I agree if drowning is fine for mink and rats, it should be acceptable for beaver or coons, or otter or nutria as well. I beleive the drowning issue will either be dealt with straight on at some point or left up to each state to decide that outcome either legal or not. It has been a time honored deal in most states that drowning is acceptable, therefore I see the drowning issue left up to the states as it always has been. My opinion only!
It has nothing to do with longevity, it has to do with being used in the past in similar studies, letter grades have been around for how long? Many have tried other systems, only to go back to the letter grading because it has stood the test of time and works and all know the outcome of letter grading. My question to you is: What scale would you recommend if sitting on the commitee? Straight forward question, if asked what would be your answer?
Sorry I guess were I live I have yet to see an ABATE bill board? Billboards are a regional thing as cost per sign and to do it over a broad exspanse would cost far more than the NTA,FTA and state associations could fork over on a yearly deal. Plus the upkeep and the destruction that would be sure to happen from the Anti's. WE have PRO Trapping billboards in our state and there painted over alot!!!! From a group of raticals.
Yes we need more education, but the BMP's and it's information can be found on the web, and more will come from IAFWA, and the videos should be shown to as many as possible, each time I do a classroom discussion on trapping and furbearers those videos are shown along with the NTA's as well. I receive good feed back from the kids and Adults on those videos, and the information they receive from them, we need more people showing more of these videos. County Fairs, State fairs, hunter saftey, classroom talks, sports shows etc. We need to get out to as many as possible and let them know what we are doing and that we care about the future of the speices and educate the importance of trapping, If every trapper could do 2-3 talks a year how much coverage would that get?
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Post by trappnman on Aug 23, 2005 15:21:35 GMT -6
Exactly
Actually, more schools then ever are not using the stand A- F grading system, FWIW
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 23, 2005 15:33:14 GMT -6
No to the contrary Tman, more schools are going back to A-F because parents are fed up with not being able to tell exact progress being made in school, with these nightmarish grading scales being used the last 10 years+, and leaving avenues open for debate as to what there child is acheiving versus bobby who sits next to cathy, and cathy we are told doesn't do her homework and Bobby does and what does acheiving standard versus excells standard exactly mean? Mrs. Crux what is your standard and how does it compair with Mr. Mullmans 5th grade class were my boy tommy is in and he is getting a slightly below standard grade?
Versus Bobby got a B- and Cathy received a C+ and tommy got a c-, alot more clear isn't it?
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Post by trappnman on Aug 24, 2005 5:55:29 GMT -6
As an ex teacher, I know how silly and valueless letter grades are.
Please send me the link to where you think schools are going Back to letter grades.
but in any case- it doesn't matter.
What matters, is that all trapped animals are subject to the same scale on ONE item, and not the others. Very inconsistent and very wrong.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 24, 2005 15:32:28 GMT -6
Tman, I could give you information stating just what i said and you can find information against it, I go by being a past school board member and my wife attending many conferances and the input from both of these and the disatisfaction from using "new age" grading systems by parents and teachers both!
What matters, is that all trapped animals are subject to the same scale on ONE item, and not the others. Very inconsistent and very wrong.
Please clarify that statement?
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Post by trappnman on Aug 24, 2005 17:04:24 GMT -6
interestingly enough- I ran for school board last election. Lost, but had a fair share of votes.
The only time that animals are considered exactly the same in these bmp studies- is in the threshold scale.
Otherwise, in every other aspect- coon are different from coyotes- you can drown a muskrat or a mink, but not a coon...
Methods are tested in every other bmp concept- but aren't allowed in the coon?
Do I think its a conspiracy? No, I do not.
Do I think that the coon bmps were entered into prematurely? Yes, I do.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 24, 2005 18:54:01 GMT -6
I"m willing to bet we have not heard the last of the coon BMP's!!! Also methods were tested 2 totally different protocols were used if not more, one with no cover and one with, they tried the 1.5 coilspring in 3 variations. Had 30" of chain etc, by the way the testing from2002-2003 is on the IAFWA website and they held nothing back ALL information on the testing is their for ALL to see! So much for the nay sayers that stated they would never publish the meat and potatoes of the testing.
Again all species must be treated the same on the humane scale as that is how the majority would want it, to do any other would be Bias and we can't have bias studies or loose all creditabilty with the public.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 24, 2005 19:05:33 GMT -6
but the vote to keep the Olson scale was not even a unamimous vote by those responsible. It was pushed throguh..Mr Hamiltons exact words I believe, by the Vet council.
no other animal studies or laws or even ethics, as I keep saying- is the same. Different standards are applied all the time. We both can site numerous examples of this.
A couple quick ones- how are chickens and dogs raised, confined? What is perfectly acceptable and "humane" for one, is not for the other.
Hogs and cattle- both in raising, slaughtering- different standards are used for both.
So creidbility was never the issue. Just as credibility isn't the issue elsewhere on my examples.
The public- knowing about..what...zero about the Olsen Scale- wouldn't know, care, have a clue if, based on the individual characteristics of each animal, different thresholds and more importantly- different criteria were used. Just as different traps, different methods and different dispatches are already being used and included in the bmps.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 24, 2005 19:15:21 GMT -6
You can't put one species over the other when it relates to humane or inhumane tatics, as I stated we don't have different levels of law for being cruel to a dog versus a cat or a horse or a pig, it's all classified as one charge animal crulty, otherwise you would have a nightmare of a time in a court of law, attorneys stating why this animal brings 1 charge and the other a different charge, or would be like stating murder of a small child holds a higher penalty than that of a 70 year old man becuase he used up 80% of his life so you get off with a lesser charge, extreme example maybe maybe not in this day and age.
In confinments your talking size and space issues and what has been agreed upon as humane and inhumane standards, far different than wild species that free rome. If the dogs and chickens were of the same size you would have the same standards, we have different size traps to better match species, but they are free roaming wildlife, not confined species, I would bet if they had BMP's for ranch raised furbearers you would have different confinement guidlines too, again because there a ranch raised animal not free roaming.
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