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Post by SgtWal on Mar 1, 2005 22:44:47 GMT -6
Let me be the Devil's advocate for a moment. Let's say I support PETA and want to end trapping. And am in a position to meet and know a few folks up at F&W. We have failed every time we try to outright ban trapping. So now what? I start talking to some folks over at F&W and I look for someone who wants to make a name for themselves. I talk to them about getting ahead of the curve and on how they could be responsible for protecting trapping for the future. I show them the BMPs and suggest they could secure trapping if they were used as guidlines for some new regs. I point out the 24 hour checks used in the tests. I point out the low injury ratings. AND I point out that trappers themselves helped write them. And then I suggest that the check times would win favor with trappers and non-trappers alike, as both want to lower injuries to pets and animals. Then I suggest that the approved traps should be put in place, perhaps a phased approach over a few years. That would give the "truely humane" trappers a chance to change over their traps. At the end of the grace period those "less humane" trappers who haven't changed over would find their un-approved traps banned for use on the animals covered by the BMPs. Then when the hearings start, I flood the meetings with people who demand that the approved list be limited to only the top half of the traps listed, the very best for the animals as it were. And when Joe Trapper stands up to complain, I simply ask why their traps failed the tests, if they are so humane. And I quietly point out that if they ever test better than the traps approved we will add them in. (Which we will actually fight against if it ever happens.) Once the trap checks and approved trap list is in place, I have a nose under the tent. From then on I have removed most traps made in the last century from being used. Grandad cannot pass down his traps for use anymore. Old man Newhouse is finally out of trapping. The next step logically, is to quietly move to set limits on how many traps can be set by a trapper. This will be based on some arguement that only so many can be properly run in the time check period. I haven't ended trapping, but I will have cut it down and built a fence around it. And the trappers helped me do it.
wayne
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 2, 2005 6:43:44 GMT -6
Sgt wal. wow! Thats alot of lets say. Lets say anytrap that has passed the BMP, that without changing the thresholds, whichI don't see happining, will remain on the approved list! Ol man newhouse hasn't been in traping for quite a few years, mostly collector traps. They have done polls to see what the most popular traps and species are. While pointing out the BMP's and all there benfits what does that do to the anti's message? More importnantly what does that do to there funding? That is all they care about not the cause at all, but the funding. I guess if you want to be that skeptical about states Game Depts, go ahead. Again if you think your state will mandate and make the BMP's law, then you need to talk with them or if you think they will set a trap limit, again talk with them and get your trappers org involved.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 2, 2005 7:12:28 GMT -6
Excellent post SgtWal- its time we set the rose colored glasses aside- there are enough indications already as to what the states will do with the bmps- and its not good!
The other side apparently feels free to "what if" all the positve but to do the same with the negative "what ifs" isn't kosher?
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Post by SgtWal on Mar 2, 2005 11:56:23 GMT -6
Another point to think about. The new HSUS/FFA has a PAC that can donate money to the politicians. Just how will the NTA and other pro-trap groups match this flow of coins? A few bucks in a close Governors race can make a powerful friend.
wayne
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 2, 2005 14:02:01 GMT -6
Why are all these things comming too light now? Why couldn't the govenor be bought of either politiclly or moneytary in the past? All this because of BMP testing? Sounds like there is dirt digging being done in a politcal campaign? Lets look at the facts. 1. Each state has the authority to do what they will ,with wildlife, outside of a few species and migratory waterfowl.2. Each state will decide how big a role if any in some states the BMP's will have. 3. The BMP data is all there to see by Mr Hamilton over on trapperman. Even the coon BMP data, so much for the theroy this is all behind closed doors, and out to get the trapper. You ask it gets made availble, don't ask then you can't get the info. 4. The BMP's have not been made into law anywhere as of yet, and if it does let's see how it's enacted.5. Yes your going to see different ways the BMP's will be used by different states, that is what they all do now in reguards to trapping, each state has there own rules and regs. 6. Where were all the nay sayers after the coyote BMP? Not to much to tell back then, but the coon BMP comes out and oh my the sky is falling! Look at the traps rec. for red fox and western coyotes all what is used today. The most popular traps are in the line ups for red fox and western coyotes. WE can play hypothetical all day long the bottom line is the BMP"s are hear and we can use them to our advantage, how? By having for the first time in trapping history FACTUAL SCIENCE BASED DATA, that proves the trappers point, trapping isn't inhumane and we have the data to back it up! WE show compassion in the minds of Joe Public, by being proactive and not forced into testing, and having the results and information on ourside. Again one more time, what Anti group can look at the BMP's and think they will gain from them? I would love to ask HSUS and Peta what they think, there creditabilty is shot if they come out for the BMP"s, all they have said for years will be neglected by many,many people if they jump on board the BMP bandwagon, and yet they have no scienetific proof to combat the data zero, zilch, notta. This will put a hault to alot of the anti trapping bills, becuase they will lose more of these battles by larger margins, because science is on our side. If you want to run the BMP"s in the ground do so, if you want to run me in the ground do so, but this is the first time trappers have ever been pro active in our stance, and it is what is needed to protect trapping for future generations, we always sat back and let the fight come to us, and then scrambled on defense, it cost many states, now where taking the fight to the anti's, and I for one think they will fold like a wet sack. Becuase we have the data to prove them 100% wrong! Good Day
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Post by trappnman on Mar 2, 2005 14:15:50 GMT -6
BS its the only time trappers have been proactive.
don't act like you are shocked that the coon bmps are under fire- they have been since proposal! If you truly are shocked- you weren't paying attention.
why you insist in personally hanging your star on the bmp bandwagon is beyond me-
Esp the coon- to delibrately remove the #1 thing that reduces chewing- entanglement- says it all.
Quite a group of trpas that passed- and look at tohse nice efficentcy scores...less than 70%.
Would you trap coyotes with a trap rated at 65-67% capture success rate?
Yet you want me to do so on coon? Sorry- my success rates are in the 90% and up brackets.
And unless i'm mistaken- weren't these all water tests?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 2, 2005 15:25:15 GMT -6
Would you trap coyotes with a trap rated at 65-67% capture success rate? No I would not! That is why I don't use 1.75 size traps, because on the coyote BMP they only acheived the 70% efficantcy as well. Are you saying you get 70% with the 1.75 then too? Or do you do better? Could it not be reasoned that if you can acheieve better than 70% on the 1.75 for coyotes, that there aren't those that can't acheieve better with the coon and the traps that passed? By using them and getting to know how they best work? Tell me of the time trappers as awhole have been pro- active? Where and when? WE have always been in defense mode until recently. • Traps were set only in areas where disturbance to captured animals was minimized ...e.g., inaccessible to the public, unlikely to encounter free-ranging dogs, unlikely to encounter farm/construction equipment or vehicles. • Cover, if not naturally present, was placed at all trap sites. • Both trappers were trained by one trapping expert from the NTA on specific methods to avoid stressful set conditions, including entanglement, and other methods to reduce stress for captured raccoons. Read the above, where it states if no cover was there, they added cover for the coons, now do you want cover or enatanglement? The cover was added to help keep the coon calm and to give it something to try and occupy him, different than entanglement,as you are very aware of would take out all swiveling action and would have left a real mess.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 2, 2005 18:51:33 GMT -6
To say entanglement would void all swiveling action and is to be avoided- shows your lack of exprience in trapping coon on land.
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Post by SgtWal on Mar 2, 2005 19:52:04 GMT -6
It isn't just the raccoon BMP that stirred things up. Some have been opposed to them from the start. For one the traps that tested for the coyote BMP were not the most wanted or prefered, just the most common. Even the USDA recommended and used trap, the #3N, wasn't tested. In fact, from what I can tell, only coil springs were tested. And then some makers were alowed to submit prototypes, still only coils. Why? because the coil is the most common trap owned by trappers. Why are 1.75s and 2s coils so common, because they are a compromise trap. Big enough for many coyotes, and still small enough for fox. The BMP tells the tale it was supposed to tell. They confirm that under some specific conditions some specific traps can cause little or no injury. I would not want this kind of document as part of my defense in any court, as it is filled with things like the narrow range of test set locations and such that leave it open to a broad range of attacks. One thing is clear. Some of us believe in them and will to the end. And some of us do not, and we hope you other folks are right. But we have our doubts.
wayne
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 3, 2005 6:58:20 GMT -6
Even the USDA recommended and used trap, the #3N, wasn't tested. In fact, from what I can tell, only coil springs were tested, Not many guys use those 3n's anymore, they wanted to test the most popular traps first. There a living document, later they might be tested.
Why are 1.75s and 2s coils so common, because they are a compromise trap. Big enough for many coyotes, and still small enough for fox. Cost is also a big factor! Trappers are no different, than wal mart shoppers, they want versatility and look at cost, thats why the 1.75 and 2's are popular.
They confirm that under some specific conditions some specific traps can cause little or no injury. I didn't see alot of wording for conditions under the coyote BMP? Also don't forget the #3 os/laminated passed as well. Will have to wait and see the coon BMP and how specific the final draft gets or doesn't.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 3, 2005 7:10:54 GMT -6
I think its time you layed the $$$ to rest- its inaccurate and meaningless and another of your red herrings.
bottom line - you don't have a clue on coon trapping- yet try to rationalize the results so they are meaningful.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 3, 2005 13:30:05 GMT -6
Tman you try and read into what isn't there! The bottom line is cost plays into trap choice and selection, from the teenager setting a few traps, to older guys that take a few weeks off and trap serious, to fulltime trappers. Most aren't going to spend 20.00+ on a coyote trap to catch market price coyotes in this day and age which is about 17.00-20.00 avg. Most aren't going to drop big money on coon traps when you avg 14.00-16.00 per coon, same with mink and fox. You see trap sales down from 10-20 years ago and why? The fur prices have took a tumble, less people; less traps sold, more looking for a bargin on equipment, thats why used traps sales have went up! It isn't a slam on anyone, it is just fact, people look for the best bargin they can and stretch there dollar as far as it can go. The 1.75 trap and #2 can be used for red fox, coyotes and coons, thats why alot of guys use them, same as you water trappers; like the 1.5 it serves 3 species purpose, coon, mink and rats. Could a guy buy #1 stoploss for rats,and other traps for mink and coon, yes but "most" are going to find a trap that will work for more than one species.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 3, 2005 14:18:03 GMT -6
a knowledgeable coon trapper would know that $14-16 green coon is as good as its been for 30 years. I'd dancei n the street if I could sell every coon I took for $15 green.
A good coon trap takes 15-20 coon a year..whereas a good coyote trap might take what...4-5?
You do the math.... at coyotes that average less than coon over most of their range..
But- when all is added and subtracted- another red herring. Cost has nothig to do with techniques, etc. and btw- A duke 1.5 is perhaps the BEST factory coon trap out there. Bar none.
bototm line- the coon bmps were set u pto fail. Non entanglement says it all. WHY eliminate an important tool if not the main tool to reducing chewing in TESTS to reduce chewing...?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 3, 2005 15:02:24 GMT -6
knowledgeable coon trapper would know that $14-16 green coon is as good as its been for 30 years. I'd dancei n the street if I could sell every coon I took for $15 green. I don't know who you sold to or what you trapped in 1982-1984, but if all you averaged was 15.00 a green coon in those 3 years, I know 2 buyers that paid well better, Groenwold and Shedas fur. The coon BMP is a failure in your mind so be it. Have a good day.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 3, 2005 15:15:14 GMT -6
the prices for a few years during a fur boom are an exception that will never happen again- might as well compare the dollar today to the gold standard dollar.
what were coon worth 5 years ago? 10? 15? 20? skip 2-3 years- pre 1980? I'l ltell you- nothin'. Or close to nothin'.
I've trapped coon since the early 60s- when coon were rare to the 70s and 80s through the 90s to today. I repeat- I'll take $15 green ANY DAY OF THE YEAR.
Don't get me started on growny. I wouldn't sell a road killed possum to him. I feel hes a main cause of the price problems in the midwest. His inflated unrealistic bring em in prices , his cherry picking, etc.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 3, 2005 16:29:21 GMT -6
start separate thread if you want to defend growny.
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