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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 22, 2005 12:10:32 GMT -6
Was the Duke 1.5 double jaw that passed the standards the stock production double jaw (with outside lams added)?
Was a stock Duke 1.5 even tested?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 22, 2005 13:45:46 GMT -6
I'm just flabbergasted that we get basically NO info on the Coon BMPs...
Quite honestly- I see no good in the coon ones because- in my opinion of course- but in my opinion as a long time, real life coon trapper- the basic premise is flawed.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 22, 2005 14:46:41 GMT -6
Here's what I'm wondering about...
If the production Duke 1.5 double jaw passed, I would bet my sweet bippy that the Duke regular jaw would pass as well.
The stock Duke DJ is stamped out so shallow that there is no way it does anything to stop chewing.
So here is what I am guessing what happened.
They tested 1.5 coils, Sleepy Creek, Victor with different chains and what not and they all failed. They saw that some of the double jaw added traps passed, so frantically, the "BMP people" came to the conclusion that they should test a double jawed production trap...you know, one that trappers can actually buy...LOL. Lo and behold, the Duke 1.5 double jaw is the only one in production!! They slap on some lams, test it, and it passes!!
Hmmmm...wonder what the stock Duke with lams would have done?
Now, this theory of mine is based solely that the Duke 1.5 reg jaw wasn't tested and the Duke 1.5 DJ was the stock double jaw.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 23, 2005 9:35:44 GMT -6
There are 4 models of the 1.5 double jaw tested and passed the coon BMP, as well as the #1 coilspring,and yes the #11 is an offset double jaw that passed. The 1.5 reg jaw after extensive testing, and persistanly failing the animal welfare scores. Tom Krause explains it all in this month American trapper.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 23, 2005 9:41:32 GMT -6
you insist on the "best" coyote trap you can find to trap your coyotes- but you pesist in touting inferior coon traps for us coon trappers.
I flat out tell you- only an idiot would use #11 offsets as a serious coon trap.
And if coon bmps cannot aceppt drowning as a humane device USED WITH THE AVERAGE COON TRAP- even more reason to say Bogus!
Tom is a nice guy- but his opinion on coon bmps carries no more weight than mine- maybe less cause I probally have trapped more coon than he has.
any "study" that says #11 cause less damage than 1.5 SET PROPERLY is a BOGUS study- and I know that as sure as I know what direction the sun goes up and comes down.
And thats a Fact...Jack...
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Post by nib420247 on Jan 23, 2005 9:44:12 GMT -6
It to me seems very dumb to test anything but the 1.5 duke as far as a coon trap goes,,,,that is what I use and I know lots of other coon guys love them, not only that, look at the new guys to the sport, all the kids, chances are when they are looking like I was in the begining, they are going to keep prices in mind, why get one doz, victors, when you could get a doz, dukes, and have enougth left to get some stretchers, they are what I believe is the most common coon trap, and if they are not now then in ten years, they surely will be, and I hate to even say this for obvious reasons but if it ever comes down to it, then I'm sure the warden will question all my fox trap locations :-Xand surely ask how many fox I've cought in them big hole sets on the river, or mink traps on drowners. you know what I mean....I feel like we are a dying breed, but I will get my coon, If I got to get a hound then so be it. cant say I dont like the #11's but they are I think a bit heavy on the small coon, good for drowners, but I would take my stock duke over a modified #11, and I dont care what you do to it, lam, center swiveled, what ever, I'll take the duke, as will most coon men I've met. offset for coon- not me, and I dont care what anyone says, an offset might do less damage than reg jaws, but that in my opinion is because they get less damage when they pull out right away ;D and I've not had many of what I would call unacceptable damage on my coon from the trap scince I've learned a thing or two, and those coon do damage to themself thats my only problem, but I cant change the coon's way of thinkin, I hope that they realise that coon need to be cought and held or the trap serves no use to me.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 23, 2005 10:05:40 GMT -6
nib
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 23, 2005 19:17:59 GMT -6
Look I did not particpate in the coon BMP and I'm sure many good trappers did, after EXTENSIVE TESTING of the 1.5 they could not get it to PASS! We been down this road and I'm not going back, the threshold must remain the same that is the bottom line, the coon bmp was not fixed, slanted or whatever you may think, the #11 offset double jaw passed, when all data is released we will have all the facts, in the mean time you that want 1.5 passed go ahead write the IAFWA and have them get you on the list to retest the duke 1.5 reg jaw! If you can get the same injury scores as the ones that passed they have no recoures but too pass them! Get ahold of Bryant White in MIssouri and ask him to retest this trap! At this time I have no factual information if the duke 1.5 was tested or not but I'll try to find out.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 23, 2005 19:47:21 GMT -6
Why are the results seemingly being withheld from the public?
Well- as everyone always says- the bmps aren't laws or regulations- and Thank God for that!
What logical reason- what RATIONAL reason can you give to defend threshold levels being the same for different animals?
For craps sake- broken teeth counted!
They can print up the coon bmp and spend all the money they want promoting it in ...misleading ads at best----but the coon bnp will be ignored by the coon trapping public.
$$$$ down the drain.
Coon pay my bills.
#11 dj offset. Right.
Hey- how about a box with a stick holding up and me hiding in the bishes holding the string.
Bah!
Wish I could say it makes me laugh- but its pathetic.
Unless the final report is so much different from the things you report- I will never support them, I will never speak in favor of them and I will indeed, speak in disfavor of them when asked and when not asked.
Bad science is bad science.
since you seem privy to the numbers- please post them. I have a feeling the true numbers are something you cannot defend, thus the secrecy.
Or give me an link
I love science. I love research.
But when "sceince" tells me black is white.....I believe what I see and feel with my own senses.
After all, swamp air really doesn't cause maleria....
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 23, 2005 21:30:55 GMT -6
Although what has been posted about which traps have passed, is pathetic in my opinion, it is still a little better than I expected, and that was something similar to Canada, Body Grippers Only for Coon. I still hold my original belief on these BMPs, ....HORSEMANURE!!!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 8:05:58 GMT -6
First off if you change the thresholds, those against the BMP will say you are minipulating the outcome by changing injury scores to get those traps you want to receive a pass a pass. WE can't go down that road or those outside of trapping, will see us as a shady group. The actual numbers I do not have, the report will be due out in the next few months along with the western coyote BMP,I will post the actual scores when I receive them. DJ have you particapated in the BMP process? Do you talk to those that have? WHat leads you to your idea that the BMP is horse manure? One day many of these will save somebodys butt and then some ,then will see where you all sit on the BMP. All traps are random and mixed up, the technicain is there too keep the trapper honest, all traps are checked in 24 hrs by noon, all data is colllected, trap jaw width at point of capture, area of leg where caught, condition of animal when arrived, time, location. Coon duke there is nothing frantic with the IAFWA, this whole process, takes alot of time and they make sure they get it right. All injury scores are given after the full necocropsy is done and the vet gives out the damage done. They use vet's I'm sure they feel will not bias the study as well, and Tom Krause has on many an occasion been present to view this process. Better yet call and see if you can come out and view the process as well, then make you mind up on the BMP's, I say become invovled if you want change instead of casting stones. I'm done until I have the factual data too post.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 16:01:04 GMT -6
The theasholds are a joke.
The same for muskrats, the same for coyotes, the same for coon?
ok.
If the IAFWA has you bambozzled- thats not my fault.
From what I gather- the vast majority of trappers are against the bmps- as they perhaps should be if we are going to get such inaacurate "test" results.
so- on the western coyotes- you would go along with a 24 hour check if they determine that to be the only humane check time?
Or if Sterlings didn't pass?
After all, if the BMP authors call for it- you would have to accept it ....right?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 16:15:23 GMT -6
First off no one has me bamboozled. I have had the opportunity to talk with people like Sam trusso and others from this agency, and sit in on there workshops, they are doing good things for trappers! It is not just testing, PR goes along way into this whole thing as well! You can have the best data and test results or lack there of in your mind, but either way if the general public perceives you as a jerk, then the testing stands alone, and is only counted at best as half your grade so to speak. I'm glad I live in a state with a strong backbone and wildlife and predators are what they are, as I don't ever see us going to a 24 hr check, nor has anyone made it a point that we do so. We had to test just like the rest 24 hr check law to keep all test the same! The sterlings did pass and with excelllent marks so that is a mute point. The coyote BMP's are distinct east/west because of the dog/cat issue and thats why some of the more beefer coyote traps where tested and passed in the western coyote BMP, because the western state agencys seen the need from trappers and predator control men, to test the best traps for our needs. That was not cowtailng to anyone, hense the 2 different test East and West.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 24, 2005 16:23:51 GMT -6
TC35, I respect you and your opinions on this. I am a believer in science and research.
I don't want to spout my mouth off until I know if the Duke 1.5 was tested. If it was and failed, then I will accept the science and results...no questions asked.
But if the most popular coon trap used by most trappers wasn't chosen to be tested, I feel there is some BS going on. Favoritism to certain trap manufactuers.
When this process started, it was said that NO BRAND NAMES would be published. That didn't happen. Just seems fishy to me.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 16:55:12 GMT -6
Coon Duke I put your question in an email, I'll try and have that answer to you in the next day or two. If it was tested or not.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jan 24, 2005 17:32:56 GMT -6
Thanks TC
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 18:05:34 GMT -6
CD- Why would you accept the sceince and test methods without knowing the test samples, where the tests were done, what period of year, Etc??
Flawed science is flawed science. Until the figures are published we don't know what tpe pf science it was.
I have been told- by those deeply involved in the BMP coon precess- that the tests were set up so that the common coon traps failed. That it was known ahead of time that they WOULD fail.
With the low thresholds- how could they pass- knowing what coon do?
and remember- chewed on1 toe was probally a non pass. A broken tooth. Death by hypothermia with no chewing was a real no pass.
Rubbed noses were minus- etc, etc. Most "injuries are in reality minor- but they all cause a trap not to pass.
From what I hear- the ONLY foothold that passed was the #11 dl offset- and that BARELY. Thus- I'd like to see the figures.
Coon chew. In any practical foothold trap- they chew.
The BMPs proved what trappers knew. No surprizes there.
We knew that coming in.
It doesn't matter if the Duke was tested or the #11 or a bob smith 1.5- NON passed and NO-ONE expected them too.
And thats the problem.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 18:07:29 GMT -6
coyote bmps were easy- stop broken bones, stop cutting.
Trappers did this years ago.
Sadly- coon are not coyote.
You will never get a practical coon trap for land/water use that can pass a coon bmp.
Which is why Canada has footholds illegal for coon trapping.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 24, 2005 18:20:24 GMT -6
Well first all data is considered into the final outcome this I know, because I had 2 real mangy coyotes caught in Montana Modifieds that where dead on arrival, bad looking feet as well, they faught like the dickens and new if no escape they where done. I talked to others who had the same experiances, does that mean the Montana won't pass the coyote bmp? I doubt it because all data will be weighed from ALL trappers taking place in this study. The majority looked good. These traps where tested for fox as well, it will be neat to see that outcome as well. I don't have many fox in my area, but the few I caught where all in the other traps tested, I did talk to some that had decent looking feet in those modified montanas, from what you gathered with them if they would pass for fox would you call this a bogus study? Read Tom Krauses editorial 4 models of 1.5 double jaw passed as well as the #1 coilspring.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 18:46:48 GMT -6
I cannot put this any clearer than this-
Where do oyu get off saying I oppose the bmp proxess?
If you look back over my posts the last 4 years, my articles in FTA- youwill see that I heartily endorse the process.
One of my first banning on Dobbins was because I defended the bmps by saying that sending them to Paul Wellstone- opened up a dialogue with someone who COULD have been swayed by them.
I have a letter I got a week after his death- saying that animal comfort was his main objective- and he welcomed the process. ________________________________________
But because I accept one study- doesn't mean I accept it all.
We aruged 4 years ago tat the coon protocal was FLAWED- from te getgo we argued that. The FTA was al eader in voicing our oblections.
As I said earlier- I was told by an insider, and no I will not mention names- take me at my word or call me a liar- I don't really care- that the coom bmps as such COULD NOT allow many if any passing traps- by the very nature of the thresholds.
The fact that the only foothold trap that passed is a #11 offset - if the reports are true- is a joke-
BUT entirely unexpected.
so tell you what- get off my back about not providing input- been there, done that..a few times.
Yes- your 2 dead coyotes will be 100% negative scores- for that size trap- in a sample as small as some of the study groups- 2 is a big %
If you want to debate coon, their habits, thresholds, acceptable non acceptable injuries- I'm more than game.
Glad you finally acknowledged the vet council is on the bmps not to help trapping- if you think that...my oh my...
Repeat after me- the US Veternarian Society (or whatever their name is) has issued statements say trapping is inhumane and should be outlawed.
Were they crooked? I'm not saying that- but to think that any grey areas, any "maybes" would go our way....thats not realistic.
No good can come from a coon bmp that doesn't recognise, really, any practical leghold coon trap as being "humane" to coon.
As was preordained.
Im wrong? Then why weren't the threshold numbers increased? THe trappers o nthe bmp committee pushed hard for it. I was told- "no way was the vet's council going to give o nthat point"
PS- they have said the same about drowning.
The coyote bmps, and rightly so- gained a fairly universal acceptance.
Not so with the coon ones- GIGO
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