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Post by blakcoyote on Aug 26, 2005 20:33:00 GMT -6
I was thinking after reading about BMP's on another site,and it occurred to me that maybe the biggest threat that the BMP's could have on trapping,is dividing trappers.And by this I mean things like,attitudes that come across or said like a real trapper wouldnt use this trap or that.Kinda like the real hunter wouldnt use anything but a 30-06 for deer,or a real hunter wouldnt use dogs for bear,or hunt deer in a fence.It just hit me that the BMP's could someday spell the end of trapping if used in this manner.I never really thought of it that way,until I seen a post on another site,where a guy replied any experienced trapper,and bam,it was right there.
Any thoughts on this?
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Post by SteveCraig on Aug 26, 2005 21:08:15 GMT -6
They are already divideing trappers!
I dont care for them and I know they will used to take away more trapping freedoms than they will ever gain. Steve
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2005 7:46:37 GMT -6
I really cannot see them dividing trappers. Most trappers could really care less. Heck,very few trappers on the internet are even concerned very much.
But-
I have no dobut that it will be illegal to use footholds to trap coon in somes state after the bmps are published. Outlawing the 1.5 by Joe Q Public via state agencies or ballot will be like outlawing $2 Sat nite specials- sounds like a logical, smart thing to do.
some say, and I agree in a way, that proper use of the bmps can SAVE trapping- and this is certainly true when you look at the CANINE bmps. Here- what trappers know works and causes less damage- was tested and the tests proved out what trappers have been saying.
In coon, given the impossible criteria to uphold, we don't have the same option of bmp use (and the next one that tells me a #11 offset is a good coon trap is getting a good slap!)
Given the threasholds AND the protocal- it was impossible for the popular coon traps to pass.
Once again coon aren't coyotes and methods designed to determine animane traps for canines cannot and should not have been applied to coon.
Back to the point- the canine bmps lulled trappers into a sense of security- what harm can the bmps do, since the results are what we have been saying. Victory for our side!
but- the coon bmps are a brisk drop back to reality-
the coon bmps will end up uniting most trappers to be against the bmps.
Bottom line- it doesn't matter- the gov will do like they always do and shove things down our throats. At least we don't have to make it easy on them.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 27, 2005 8:10:55 GMT -6
I see division already and beleive me the anti's are liking it, what better way to get rid of us than having us fight amongst oursleves? ? I think alot forget just because we choose to ingnore this whole issue won't make it go away or make it so you could continue on in the same manner as we all were. The states that have lost trapping have proved this out!!!! They all waited for the fight to come to them, instead of taking on the issues with a straight and honest approach, in alot of ways like it or not that is what the BMP's are doing!!!! Some may disagree with this or that, but the bottom line is the BMP's will give us creditability with the general public, how could anyone dispute that? We take away alot of hearsay and miss truths from the anti's with this data and research, we have proven that by using the traps with modifications we can be kind to the animals without having to go with a rubber jawed trap, that trap was designed for the whole PR issue from the get go!!! WE must stand together and quit the bickering amongst ourselves for the good of thewhole, is the BMP 100% perfect NO! I don't ever see a scenario were it could be, it is what it is and that is a very good PR thing for trappers. As Tman stated, reguardless BMP's or not states have the right to change and adopt things in there game rules and regs, nothing is changed in fact one could argue without the BMP's many more states could have folded on the trapping issue from outside pressures, because alot felt stranded on an island with no good factual information to back up their stance that trapping is humane. The BMP's will change that line of thought for many state game depts, it works the same in most states, the burden of proof is on the game depts to tell the general public and to prove to them why each of their seasons and methods are needed for the good of the whole! Should it be run this way? Doubt it, but it is what it is and has been that way for years because the general public wants to be kept informed and trapping is no different just becomming more of a limelight issue in some states than in years previous.
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Post by edge on Aug 27, 2005 8:39:18 GMT -6
Credibility with the public?You cant be serious........interesting thought either way.
I'm not one to get too far into this BMP bullchit,but I will say this:
A)It had possibilities.
B)Some of the trappers involved were involved for the right reasons;and believed(which may or may not be the end result)that BMP's would help trappers.
C) Some trappers are only too happy to suck whatever gets shoved in their mouth for a little notoriety;often under the guise of "making a living".
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2005 8:47:58 GMT -6
put 3 trappers in a room and you will not have a majority opinion on anything.
its a sad day when a discussion is labeled fighting among ourselves.
Trappers that trap coon- probably the majority of all trappers, will be against the coon bmps when they are published. To think they will not be, isn't being realistic.
But if you want trappers to quit "fighting" then capitulate...LOL
I honestly think your version of the results of the bmps on states, federal is being overly, unrealitically optimistic. In no way does history back that up.
and it NEVER pays to stop fighting unjust laws and applications- just because money was spent, doesn't mean that the tests are correct and true- GIGO.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 27, 2005 10:17:51 GMT -6
I honestly think your version of the results of the bmps on states, federal is being overly, unrealitically optimistic.
Please explain further?
Credibility with the public?You cant be serious.... Yes serious as a heart attack read the research that was done on what the general public thinks and why!
C) Some trappers are only too happy to suck whatever gets shoved in their mouth for a little notoriety;often under the guise of "making a living".
Go on with this line of thought further please.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2005 10:30:53 GMT -6
"I honestly think your version of the results of the bmps on states, federal is being overly, unrealitically optimistic."
You think the bmps are all good, that no state will ever innact them as laws, that there will not be a domino effect and that the feds won't soon be involved bigtime- interstate commerce if nothing else as leverage.
I believe the opposite- that the bmps WILL become law...that the 1.5 WILL be mandated as an illegal trap...that the feds WILL put pressure on the states, etc.
I think that the states will start to "approve" the bmps- and why would they not- pressure for sure will be put on the personal involved to make the "effort worthwhile"...as is being done with the snaring already. What was brought up in Montana wil be brought up again. 24 hour checks wil lbe the normal in ALL states...just like MI lost their extended checks this past year (thanks for all the help NTA!)
Then- the feds will put pressure on for the bmps to become law- and they will.
The handwriting is on the wall- we are going to get bmps shoved down our throats- its just a matter of time-
but- perhaps, just perhaps- by fighhting NOW- we can get our input involved, something that is NOT happening now.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 27, 2005 13:05:31 GMT -6
Quite the optomist tman, why didn't the feds pass many times the legislation to ban the foothold? It was brought up on a yearly basis there for awhile!!! What good would come from the federal government dictating trapping regs??? How much more of a tax liability would their be to have the federal government enact the rules and the regs?
Do you think the states want or would allow the feds to enact BMP's as law? What would states think to be next? How much insite does the feds have into trapping and were on there massive list of program reform does trapping lay with the them?
States have different needs and wants from wildlife, and you won;'t have a blanket effect ever when it comes to laws and regs, each state will decide what they want to use and how they want to use the information from the BMP's, it is a big data base of information that was never available in the past. Sure alot of the newer Biologist are less involved with trapping, but they can use the information from BMP's and the people of their respective states to help determine the dirction they go with it all!
The states have the right to set their rules and regs for most wildlife species, do you think any state game agency would want that takin away in any form? I say NO WAY! Most state game depts get their funding through license sales, the last thing they want is for the feds to tell them how many and which tags to give out! Trapping would be the door opener for just that very thing to happen, but it won't as states have rights to manage the wildlife for the most part!
It is tough for some game agencys to back up the need for trapping or do good PR, becuase they don't have ,many that have acutally trapped so they can use the BMP's as a guidline to help answer PR issues and to see the data to back up the claims trappers have made for years!!! How would a newbie biologist be able to answer PR questions if he never set a coyote trap in his life? he can go by the data and show that traps X,y, and Z have minimal effect to the coyote because it was tried,tested and found to have this as an average injury score which meets IAFWA guidlines.
Every states has an interest in this org, those that choose to particpate and even those that don't, all state wildlife agencys comprise the IAFWA.
Far as the 1.5 being an outlawed trap will see if that happens in our lifetime? Again just because at this point and time it hasn't passed the BMP"s doesn't make it illegal nor does it state that the 1.5 is off the table for good.
No trapper input, why did they test all the modified traps for coyotes? If that isn't a direct impact from trappers I don't know what is!!!!
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Post by trappnman on Aug 27, 2005 13:38:08 GMT -6
on another forum-
A. State fish and wildlife agencies are currently involved in a major national study in cooperation with other states, the US Department of Agriculture, experienced veterinarians and state trapper associations, to evaluate various traps and trapping systems.
B. Wildlife professionals promote the use of the best available technology.
C. Trappers and wildlife management professionals support these efforts because they care about the welfare of wildlife and realize the benefits regulated trapping has in wildlife management.
Step 1.... Feds have overriden the states many, many times on wildlife issues- it happens all the time.
Laws do not have to be made by the FEDS to get the STATES to do what they want.
If you think trappers have had any major inpact, thats fine. From the acceptance of the olsen scale to now- I believe the opposite. Hasn't the FTA and that other org been saying all along we have had no real inpuit?
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Post by blakcoyote on Aug 27, 2005 14:58:27 GMT -6
What good would come from the federal government dictating trapping regs??? How much more of a tax liability would their be to have the federal government enact the rules and the regs?
Believe it or not,there are those in government and the public,that believe certain and sometimes all things should and can only be taken care of properly by the government.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 27, 2005 15:47:20 GMT -6
Tman in your bold wording you have the words like state trappers assc, wildlife professionals and trappers support these efforts, yet you state we have no input? You switch from input to major impact which one do you want?
The NTA and the FTA I beleive met with the IAFWA and have come to some sort of conclusion what input they would like to see, the word input is a very vague word as it too can mean many things to many people.
I know the fed government can do things without enacting laws, my point is show me were the pressure has been specifically on a wildlife issue from the feds to a state to change laws? I can show you failure and were the feds have had egg on their face and recanted many things. Look at the prairie dog issue.
The point being all states are welcome to become active in the BMP testing some do and some don't, I don't beleive your state has become active in the testing, I ask why? If you want change and to make a differance in all this why does your game dept sit on the sidelines? Before answering I will tell you my state has been very pro trapper and listens to the trappers and yet is envolved in the BMP process.
WE had trap tags issue come up this last commision meeting and the trappers got what they wanted no trap tags required, our commision listened to the trappers and the G,F&P and chose to leave the law on tagging as is for the time being.
Remember state to state, that is how the majority of rules and regs are decided, not from some mandate of the fed government. Also, what you have shared with us sounds like a great PR press release giving accountability and credabilty to trappers, not some doom and gloom out come a better account of that would be: We don't trust this process, we are being "forced into" things we don't like, and just leave us alone to do as we see fit.
That is what alot of the general public hears when one side of the spectrum or the other talks with no facts or data to back up what they claim. Like it or not trapping is not a right but a privlage, and when hunters and hunting relized that, hunters were seen in a far better light by millions of people. The outcome of our exsistance as trappers lies in the hands of the majority not the minority. That is the cold hard truth, like it or not, with out give and take their will be all taking for many trappers, again look at the states that lost that privlage and ask any trapper from those states, if they could trap with the BMP standrards to date or sit were they are what would they answer?
You can't wait for the fight to come to your state we must take it to them with facts, science and some empathy, without it there will be other states that go by the wayside that is a 100% Guarantee!!!!!
No one has ever one anything by playing 100% defense, because sooner or later you'll tire out and be worn down!!!!!!!
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Post by Steve Gappa on Aug 27, 2005 15:57:09 GMT -6
Tman in your bold wording you have the words like state trappers assc, wildlife professionals and trappers support these efforts, yet you state we have no input?
this was statement from IAFWA- not me. I concurr with the FTA viewpoint.
Like it or not trapping is not a right but a privlage, and when hunters and hunting relized that, hunters were seen in a far better light by millions of people.
Actually, in Minnesota and some other states- it is indeed a right and guareenteed to us through our State constitution. As is hunting and fishing.
have the bmps given any states back their trapping rights? In Massachusetts, the state most likely to regain their rights at this moment- a liberal, Democratic state by the way- not through anything ANY national organisation except perhaps the USSA has done, certianly NOT through the bmps- but simply because certain animals were getting out of control and the monatary cost in damage and health concerns overrides the bunny huggers soft spots for those cute furry beavers.
Federal regualtions are in effect all over the United States on different species of wildlife including harvesting.
The bmp studies will give credance to the thought that ONLY certain methods and equipment will do... and you can take this to the bank- I believe within 10 years- all states will be at 24 hour checks. My opinion- but a reasonable guess based on whats happening now. And as far as liberal snaring regulations....like dominos states are going to fall- look at MI right now-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 28, 2005 8:18:27 GMT -6
With a state vote your "right" could be takin away correct? We'll see with your 10 year 24 hr check law, I don't see that happening because many states hve just passed regs to extend check laws in the last 5-6 years, gas prices going higher, I don't see why or were states that have extended checks would be so willing to change to 24 hrs, knowing full well less license sales, less people in the field. Some states have bilogist thatare wise enough to know the impacts of certain regulatory changes.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 28, 2005 9:47:33 GMT -6
I don't the the lic sales in states with extended checks comes to even 1% of the states wildlife income. So money isn't really a problem. anyways...
If a vote was taken to change a constitutional amendment, it could be taken away- just like free speech or the right to worship. But its much tougher to take away or change an existing amendment- 2/3 of the vote. It was passed with I bleieve 83% in favor. Could happen...but odds are way against it. Big plus- tied hunting, fishing and trapping TOGETHER. A bond the USSA strengthens daily. Our biggest hope and most realistic avenue to defeat and hold the antis at bay is alliances.
If you are overly optimistic, I'm overly pessimistic. I see more chances for bad coming from them, than good. Evidence of that is already occuring in several states.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 28, 2005 13:49:30 GMT -6
it's not just the trapping license it's many other species that benefit from keeping predator numbers in check!!! Without trappers and callers you wil have more loss of other game species as well, many feel the dramatic decline in sage grouse in the western US was a result of fox depredation and some habitat loss, but the fox got real good at nesting sage grouse for a dinner for them and their pups!!!
As far as the cable restraint you can argue what and why's a 1,000 ways till sunday, but time will tell the outcome the BMP's have good or bad I guess. Don't ever lull ones self into false security, because the anti's are a smart and well funded group.
Will agree to disagree as long as the trappers of the US fight for the privlage to keep trapping in educating and promoting the tools we use as ones that are efficant and humane, getting the word out and being proactive and not afraid of change that is for the better.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 28, 2005 14:59:31 GMT -6
I wil say this- the 2 bmp videos are excellent for their intended purpose- I encourage all trappers to download them and watch. An available resource that is FREE to trappers. Seen elsewhere at $130,000 out of pocket costs...
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Post by thebeav2 on Aug 29, 2005 6:40:09 GMT -6
BMPs won't be the down fall of trapping.Trappers themselves will do that. We In WI have this small group of trappers that what road side trapping eliminated,they are no better then a bunch of antis In fact they are worse then antis they are our brother trappers. They are approaching It by means of restricting the use of body gripping traps In road right a ways.The latest approach Is that you will have to cage all body gripping traps that exceed 25 square Inches If they are placed within 50 feet of the center line of any road. This will effectively eliminate the use of the 160. In the entire state. If this comes to pass It will eliminate millions of acres of trapping ground In the state of WI. It will also push the use of body gripping traps out of the road right a ways into other public and private lands where they will be exposed to more domestic animals. and then you know what the next step will be. It's time for trappers and there trapping associations to stand up for our rights as trappers and fight the lose of trapping lands and our tools. It's all ways been the rational that If we give this up It will appease a certain few.Well In my opinion I would rather fight for our rights then just roll over and piss on our legs because we are afraid we might lose.It's all ways easier to give things up then it Is to fight for them. Pretty soon we won't have anything left to fight for. Here In WI we have trapper pitted against trapper and It won't be BMPs or the HSUS or Peta that will bring us down It will be Our own trappers. If I can find out who they are I will post there names so we can all applaud them for their accomplishments. Gary
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Post by trappnman on Aug 29, 2005 7:26:52 GMT -6
beav- thats the exact type of thing that is happening in many states- all going back to the fact that there are now 2 types of trappers- trappers and "organisation trappers".
Its time that these men go back to the begining and look at why associations were formed- and stop taking it upon themselves to try to dictate policy and law- cause at least here in MN, they don't have a clue.
Leave laws and policy to the DNR- they are the professionals.
Going to 1 or 2 conventions a year, does not make one a fur bearer biologist.
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Post by blakcoyote on Aug 29, 2005 19:41:53 GMT -6
I agree with you on that Beav.It seems alot would rather appease than make a stand in WI.
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