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Post by Steve Gappa on Mar 5, 2006 5:49:37 GMT -6
A few of us were talking about landowner loyalty.
Some trappers have it, some don't.
My landowners, would never give permisison for anyone else to trap their land. Most of my territories are personal friends, gained by trapping on their land every year, taking animals the farmer wants gone, not just taking what I WANT to take.
Its unheard of here, to have multiple trappers on the same private land- it just doesn't happen.
Trapping on a land is a two part process. I do my part by trapping their land enough to control the coon, beaver, possums as well as the canines- and I'm rewarded by intensely loyal landowners.
There could be the boom of all booms- and I'd STILL have these farms because boom trappers would not be doing the off season work on the farms I do.
Took me 20 years to work up this network- when I first stated, an old trapper had many of my farm- and I was told "sorry, an older guy traps this land" . When he died, I added those farms to mine- now I am "that old guy".
Thats how it is here- not done through luck, or happenstance- but hard work on my part.
I had 3 farmers- literally in these words this past year, that were telling me about a place to go, and when they were saying how to drive it, said "why am I telling you? you know what to do"
Why is this the norm in some areas, but not in others?
Trapline loyalty can be earned if its a priority to you.
This allows one to manage their line in rotation- that is, I don't have to be there at 2 AM opening day- I can go there as it fits the line rotation.
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Post by Stef on Mar 5, 2006 6:22:19 GMT -6
Here, it works like you said above.
You know that I'm in a new area since last July and I did well on some farms this year and let me tell you that the farmers around here really hate coyotes....LoL
Around here, all the towns are really small give or take a 1000 heads per town and it doesn't take long to see the advantage when you show dead coyotes to farmers. I could pick a new farm the other day when I phoned at the hardware store. I told the boss wife (he knows me as a coyote trapper)... You can order it no problem.... "I'm the coyote trapper", your husband knows me....LoL I hang the phone and 30 sec later... had a phone call.... (Was her) Hi, you just phoned me.... She was telling me that she had a customer ( a farmer ) in front of her interested to have a coyote trapper on his property... She gave him the phone ( the business phone) and I talked with him 10-15 minutes ;D ;D ;D And yes... I got his farm. Was a good one!...LoL
Farmers where I did well found me some new farms. Some worked for me and I really appreciate what they did but don't forget.....
They did that when they saw that I could really kill coyotes.... Not before, I was a stranger!
Stef
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Post by trappnman on Mar 5, 2006 6:27:31 GMT -6
They did that when they saw that I could really kill coyotes
Thats very true- dead animals impress the farmers. I had 1 new farm this past season- got a fox and 2 cooyts off it, then the plowing patterns changed things. But- on both of the cooyte days- the farmer just happened to be in the field and drove over and saw the dead coyotes. A while back I had him call me with a number of a farm he rents, and stop me on the road here a few weeks ago, givng me another farm to trap. And the 2 new farms, are NICE.
He saw how I treated his land, he saw dead coyotes, now for him- Im the man...coyote man that is...
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Post by Stef on Mar 5, 2006 6:31:17 GMT -6
Nice Forgot that part also...LoL He saw how I treated his land,Stef
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Post by Stanley on Mar 5, 2006 6:46:39 GMT -6
It's like this in my area. Tread lightly on there prop, farmers are always watching there prop. It's a year round loyalty.
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Post by Hornhunter on Mar 5, 2006 7:04:25 GMT -6
Around here My coyote trapping is done on logging roads. Not many farms unless you travel. Permission has to come from the big land owners. Anyone who wants to trap are given the ok. If it's an un organized township (No town government) you don't even have to get permission. Lately very few trappers so very little problem. Things are changing. Paper companies are selling off large lots to private individuals. Getting so it's hard to tell who owns what. I did get a 5 year written ok on 1500 acres from two brothers from Georgia. One old time trapper that I'm sure trapped this land for years was told no when he asked. This didn't make me feel proud at all.
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 5, 2006 7:21:44 GMT -6
I always had all the land I wanted in NH to trap, and as you know, had zero other trappers around, so I did trap some public land as well as private, without any trap or fur theft. Thought that was the way it was for everyone, until moving to PA. I knew about high pressure and competition, after all the 60s and early 70s, I lived in south Jersey, lot of people trapping the marshes for rats. It was there that I honed my skills to set hidden, not to make any noise ( leave tracks in the mud ) and have to hopscotch over good ground to get to more good ground because certqin sections were tied up. But when you live in the north, you kind of get used to no one bothering your stuff, and having the land to yourself. After moving to PA, being the new guy, and most of the farms being Amish, I had to start all over, the first season I didn't have any property lined up, so figured it was easy enough, as there is also a lot of public land around, bad mistake, Christmas Eve 02 I had my worst theft ever, 11 Coil Springs in one night. I decided then, that from that point forward I was going to aquire as much land as I could get permission for, and soon after the holidays, started knocking on a few doors. I ended up with 5-6 Farms right off, in good area. Beings they were Amish, I figured I would offer to help them by using my truck to haul stuff if they needed it, or if they needed an extra hand on a weekend, I would be glad to help. It started out slow, but after a couple phone calls from them, and me responding, I started getting more people call me, as they ( the farmers ) all talk to each other. Anyway, by the next trapping season, I had most of a 9 mile long, by 5 mile wide valley tied up, and the phone keeps ringing, if I didn't have to work, I could trap full time and never set all of the land I have available to me, and like Steve said, these people are my friends now, no one else gets on their land except me. I remember them all at Christmas time, cards and fresh baked breads are dropped off a day or two before Christmas, ( yes I bake them), last year we delivered over 50 throughout the valley and another valley that I am now trapping also, because there is more suitable water trapping there. It is a slow process, to gain exclusive rights to trap land, but well worth it. You have to be a salesman, and what you are selling is yourself, treat their land like your own, show an interest in each farmers work, or family, go the extra mile so to speak, it will pay dividends.
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Post by briankroberts on Mar 5, 2006 8:08:43 GMT -6
Most of mine are the same way, even if I don't get ahold of them everyear, I had a Trapper call me one time, said he had asked permission on a certain property to trap Beaver , the landowner gave him my name and said he would have to clear it through me....B....
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 5, 2006 8:39:07 GMT -6
wyoming ranchers are notorious for no loyalty at all, give permission to anyone or 6 at a time. they think if one guy getting coyotes is good, then 10 guys is better. w.s. has such a problem that often the agreement is they trap and no one else unless approved by them. sounds harsh and unfair, but you know your stuff and don`t back stab them and no problem. but most trappers ask for coyotes and then just trap cats and educate coyotes the gman has to get- or worse, learn to trap on sheep ranches where learning is just too expensive for the rancher or gman. it`s a bad deal out there a lot of places.
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Post by bblwi on Mar 5, 2006 14:13:28 GMT -6
7 of my permissions I have had for 25 years. The rest are from 23 to 1 with most being 20 plus. We are transitioning away from small to larger dairy farms and also more 20-60 acre hobby farmers and or absentee land owners. The bulk of my trapping is still done on dairy farms. This makes my coon trapping (my big species) harder due to silage, high moisture and also more pest and vermin control around the farmstead. Even with the loss of coons I prefer the farmers, they like dealing with me and me them. I know cows, agronomy, logging and wildlife. They respect me and I them. Knowing how to traverse their land is important and I won't go into that as we had a lengthy heated discussion last year on this and we just need to know what works for each other in their areas. I am getting more non dairy farmer land owners which is OK but I don't like them and we have a mutual respect for each other. They are more arrogant about wanting to make all the rules and make you feel more like an intruder while farmers if they know you are on the land they are asking how its going or what does the corn look like etc. I stop many times and offer my thoughts as they know I can bring them some valuable information. I am doing more ROW of trapping to connect the better permissions and either expand more or drop the poorer or more conflictive permissions. I also send 2-3 1 page newsletter to my land owners per year. You may think this is a fluffy waste of say $120 per year in stamps, envelope and paper, but for me this is the best, low cost, fastest way to communicate, keep connected and update my permission people. It is neat to see your newsletter with phone #s etc. stapled to the breeder box in the barn or on the refrigerator in the kitchen. Land owner loyalty for me is real, fun and meaningful.
Bryce
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Post by rk660 on Mar 5, 2006 14:50:56 GMT -6
The ones Ive known for a while pretty much save ground for me. Like bonehead said when you have bunch of landwoners its hard to keep track of all of them. If they need beaver killed I try to show them my sucess as it helps them remember a guy. Many times if its permission quite a ways from home and they only see you once a year they can tend to forget who you even are. problem is many of them, even ones that know you fairly well will usually forget ya when a family member starts trapping especially if fur prices go up. They will forget about all the cheap years you kept plugging away and taking their beaver one one else would touch when worth 4 bucks.
Blood is definatly thicker than water.
Steve I believe you have a huge advantage over most of us from trapping gophers for these guys. You stay in touch with them a lot more than the average trapper.
Ive got 2 separate coon lines in opposite directions, both getting 40 miles from home at their far ends. One line most people know me or my family for years. the other line is in country where I didnt really know many people, and really dont run into them in cafes, stores etc. This line is a little harder to keep permission on. Its also closer to a larger population center and someone is always asking to hunt, and sometimes trap. many of these guys will give permission to first guy that asks. I try to get on this line earlyer to get permision to beat everyone else. Offering to trap beaver in summer, or bring out a cage trap for sweet corn patch coon and leaving a card helps some.
Even then, it can be tough at times. Get this, once I had a guy wanting a cage trap in June, i didnt know him very well so I got right out there and loaned him a cage trap. Figured I was in like flint. Well as it panned out I was late getting permision that year and didnt get back to him till about 3 weeks before season. his nefew wanted to trap and he even gave my cage trap to the kid! Sometimes you cant win.
The line me and buddy trapped cats on was about a hr from home, we lined up a good cat line that year, made a good run and planned on coming back next year. Cat prices went up that year and it wasnt till early september that we got down to ask permission. About 1/2 the ground already had guys on it since prices went up. We should went through that spring stoppped by and passed out some goodies but we both got busy.
I used to feel aukward about asking permission on the phone. I always felt my chances were better off meeting someone face to face. Sometimes its hard to find even where a certain landowner lives and when quite a ways from home its tough to just keep stopping by till you find them and catch at home. this has forced me to call on phone alot more, and, Im pleased to find works pretty good. ive trapped on guys for a couple years I never even met face to face. I always ask if i can stop by and talk to them about trapping, maybe even ask where they live. Ill tell them I saw they own certain section of ground off platt book and would like to stop by if thats OK. Sometimes Im surpised they will just say go ahead and trap w/o even stopping by. I always offer to though. Ive gotten pretty good at giving a good speel over the phone and it can sure save a lot of time if line is an hour from home. Do you guys do that much? It dont bother me a bit to call anymore.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Mar 5, 2006 15:15:07 GMT -6
Good post Rk...
Yes, I think the same about the gopher advantage. Being on the farms 4-5 times a summer, early fall gets and keeps me a lot of permissions. Even the farmers that I don't trap gophers for, sees me out in the fields at the neighbors.
I too agree about the phone- and thats part of being in an area a while, at least for the farms. When I call a farmer, I can tell him that I trap for...and list 2-3 of his neighbors... most times they have heard of me, and I find permissions just as easy to get as knocking door to door. Since I live in the hills- Mississippi along one side, and no place you can get to from here, I've tried to maximize my coyote line for mileage, to cover the most area and to be the most effiecent. I wanted to run three 2 week loops around a central core. I've been slowly changing these loops over the past years, and last year have it down to about as good as its going to be for my purposes of 100- 125 miles loops.
Last year I made a major addition of permissions, filling in the weak area of one of the loops. I'm pretty satisfied with the 3 set ups- with a core of farms being set up the entire stretch.
A few years ago, I gave up all my 1 coyote spots- anything out of the way. Now, I want to everse that trend, and set up all those little drivebys with a trap or two. So once again, I'll be seeking a bunch of permuissins. I've been drving around "looking".... will wait to gophers to ask...stopping in to ask about trapping coyotes in your gophering gear...makes you accepted right from the start.
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Post by jeffc on Mar 5, 2006 15:18:50 GMT -6
I've got lots of loyal good landowners. They like the coyotes and coons and beaver gone and they know I am serious and can get the job done. I too send out thankyou cards and or newsletters and this has really paid for itsself and got me exclusive rights to alot of farms. There are someplaces I had competition on and the competition didn't send a thankyou card and I did = no more competition. I did lose alot of good cat and coon ground to outfitters at the very end of the season. Got me pretty mad when I found out I had to call Washington state to see if i could trap ground I've been on since a kid and of course they aren't returning my calls. But on the bright side I've gained alot of ground and have landowners that outfitters couldn't take from me know matter the $$. For the price of one coon I can order 50 pictures from sony's image station and stick them in my thankyou cards to let people see some catch pics. I really think its important for the landowner to SEE that you know what your doing and this in turn as others have said will get you on the neighbors ground.
Jeff
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Post by roberts on Mar 5, 2006 15:28:15 GMT -6
oh how things change over time. I once had the loyalty some of you talk about. someone said "farmers hate coyotes", old school. it used to be like that here. a couple years ago a local weekly farming paper ran an article, coyotes, the dairy farmers friend. it said things like how farming practices have changed, calves are no longer born in the pastures, but in barns. farmers no longer put dairy cows to pasture, wasting energy walking around when they should be eating, making milk. it said the coyotes are no threat to the farmer , but kill deer, woodchucks, rabbits, all things that take feed away from the cows. they also keep the barn cat population in check. I've had a few farmers the last couple years, when asking new permissions say they liked the coyotes anound, the deer hunters will keep them in check. land leasing for hunting deer is be comming more of a problem for me every year. 5-6 city hunters from 4-6 hrs. away willing to give the farmer, a couple thousand dollars each to hunt. the farmer has to put up with them for 10=12 days a year and ends up with 10-12 thousand tax free dollars or more depending how much land the farmer has. one local farmer, just 4 miles away, issues day passes for $200. no more then 6 hunters a day on the 600 acres. the guy at the feed mill told me the farmer had over 40 different hunters pay this year. believe me when this happens loyalty goes out the window
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Post by bblwi on Mar 5, 2006 15:50:57 GMT -6
Loyalty is hard to keep with all the factors that one deals with. For me I would say whitetails are the biggest issue. Why? We have so many that we are trying to kill 4-600,000 a year. That is done by having long, long bow seasons from Mid Sept to the week b4 gun and now we have 9 days in Nov for sure and many areas have 4 days in Oct 4 more in Dec and a 7 day muzzle loader hunt and more bow till first week of January. If you live in the CWD eradication zone its that way till March! Many of the hunters are paying big fees to tie up the land and keep the traffic down and or out. I don't blame farmers for wanting to knock down deer that eat corn, soybean,s wheat, alfalfa and garden crops to boot. Most of my farmers could care less about coyotes for damage to farms. They don't care if their gone or not but they do want the deer, turkeys and coon gone. I can help with the coon and also the grinner's and skunks as they don't want them near the buildings. With big milk price drops and crop prices going down and land prices at record highs I can't blame a farmer for leasing 700 acres for $7,000 to a group of bird, turkey and deer hunters. That pays the taxes on the whole farmland base. What happens in reality is that the amount of game that is harvested is actually much lower due to the nature of the hunters that are there and the lack of traffic and pressure and with good habitat other animals are drawn to the land and that is nice for the lease hunters. As I expand the line I will be doing so with soft catch traps maybe some Little Grizz traps, and more cages too. Also I do know a couple of guys that lease land that want me to trap the area and get rid of some of the critters for them. I will just watch the times when they are there for trophy's. That is the neat think about e-mails etc. Lots of fast contact and messaging that could not be done years ago.
Bryce
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Post by musher on Mar 5, 2006 16:13:06 GMT -6
I don't have any trapping permissions on private land but I do have duck and goose permissions.
I believe a Christmas card and a gift make a difference. A bottle of wine is good and chocolates work well to.
With the price of some fur it's worth it. If you disagree, who would you allow on your land? I only let one neighbour on mine and he can just cut through! He doesn't hunt there or anything. You can bet he's quick to help me and he goes out of his way to make sure I never see him actually on my land!
I figure I'm getting off easy with wine considering that they're hearing a 10 guage go boom. I'd be buying them bourbon if it was spotted cat territory or marten habitat.
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Post by rk660 on Mar 5, 2006 18:37:01 GMT -6
Jeff, I like the idea about giving a pic with a card. Most guys around here beaver are about the main critter that causes them problems. Giving a pic of a 20-35 beaver day would be good. If Ive got a guy that wants beaver dead I will elaborate on i can kill them all if he doesnt let someone else mess with them first. If someone else messes with them it will be much harder to get the job done. When beaver trapping a guy should take the next day off after the first big day and run around and show them to all of them. Let them see with their own eyes that you are the man that can catch a 1/2 a pickup load.
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Post by Mike Barcaskey on Mar 5, 2006 18:46:34 GMT -6
PA has a different tradition/mentality/property structure. We have more public access land as a % of the whole than any other state than Alaska. I share several properties with other trappers. I have stopped and asked permission only to find out during the season that someone has permission and is trapping too. So far every time we have avoided each other. They trap a section and I stay over here. Unless you spell it out to the farmer, it dont cross his mind not to give permission to someone else. The Game Commission has the Farm Game Program. When a farmer signs up he dont have to give permission to everyone, but usually does. I have several properties every year that when I show up to trap I learn someone else has stopped, asked permission and trapped the place. I'd say slightly less than half wont give or dont think of giving exclusive permission.
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Post by Bob Jameson on Mar 5, 2006 21:16:51 GMT -6
I have had a similiar experience with dairy farmers and grain crop farmers this last season. Had 4 that made a point to stop and talk to me or call me on the phone to say how concerned they were that I was catching so many coyotes on their farms. Concerned that now the deer herd wont be controlled or the fawns all eaten and the turkeys controlled in the spring since I caught all the coyotes there. So they will have more crop damage. Must have read the same article in the paper that all the farmers must get.
As far as permissions around my line local in Pa. and in other states it varies as far as loyalty goes. Some let any who asks if you wait too late to contact , and some hold for you only. Others let em all go at it.
Never know until u make that contact for the next season or until you find other sets or catch circles. I dont start until later in the season here. Some wont tell u that someone else is there or they might not know. Just never can tell around here or other places out of state.
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 5, 2006 21:20:00 GMT -6
Boy I am glad the Amish are a little different up here Mike.
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