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Post by trappnman on Sept 13, 2016 6:48:16 GMT -6
yes but it was lack of foresight
yeah, that's kinda why most unexpected things happen in engineering.
locally in the 40s (slightly before my time) the Whitewater river was straightened up where normally it ran unfettered through marshes, and a series of pools were created. It was state of the art for that time, and I growing up spent many a day ducking hunting and trapping those pools.
A few years back (well, by gosh the early 90s I guess so more than a few) the evidence of why the marshes on the Mississippi were filling in, and the type and amount of vegetation was changing, and not for the better....was the marshes were no longer filtering out the chemicals and the silt- and 50 years of this was evident.
so- they did the right thing- came in and blocked off the channel every few hundred yards making scattered pools- and then let the river do what it wanted to do.
lack of foresight.
but back to the pipeline- there WAS a route planned, that avoided the sites. It was dismissed as too costly. Bet it looks cheap now.
Bryce you make a very good point on how Christians remains are treated vs native.
PS- I live a few miles from a reservation too, since that seems to matter
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 13, 2016 17:34:29 GMT -6
Tman living next to an Indian reservation and one with size gives one insight into what takes place and the mindset as well.
You can thank congress and the president for a lot of that lack of foresight! That is a fact. The Army Corp has a plan they must follow or be held liable for not enacting such, again fact.
Where do you think the Mississippi would be today without the damping of the river? Want to talk sediment really? Remember ai grew up along that River as well, barge traffic is a needed thing, can ship far more at a. Cheaper price than semis. It also has provided some great recreation and fishing as well. Durring dry years without wing dams and channels and dams along it you would have vast stretches of nothing but sand bars along both the Missouri and Mississippi again fact.
Plenty of back waters along the big muddy and lots of wildlife as well.
You do relise that the Dakota pipeline doesn't even get close to the cheyanne Sioux tribe do you not? Also who passed the route at that federal and state level?
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Post by bblwi on Sept 13, 2016 21:35:01 GMT -6
No one is questioning the lock and dam system of a major river system that can handle barge traffic now all the way to the twin cities. What Steve was referencing is the non major transportation portions of the watershed and the ditching of those waterways and the impact on the sedimentation in the pools on the Mississippi. Dredging is not cheap and the system needs to maintain 9 foot depth for the barges. Most of the sediment comes from the tributaries and if that can be mitigated that is helpful. What does living next to a Reservation have to do with barges on the Mississippi or even pipelines through the reservations. One does not gain insight regarding Native American Customs that much by living next to them, but by interacting with them frequently and studying their history and their culture. We had about 5-10% of our high school population Native Americans so I guess that gives me a lot of expertise in this area. The fact is the pipeline will probably get built but that does not prevent the Natives from exercising their democratic rights. That is one of the great attributes of living in the USA. Freedom of speech and expression is number # in the bill of rights for a good reason and the founding fathers gave us a great gift with their foresight.
Bryce
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Post by redsnow on Sept 14, 2016 12:11:23 GMT -6
I'm sure I heard about the Oka Crisis, was a long time ago.
Honestly I think Brian made the biggest point, the "natives" are willing to share for a price!
But I will tell you that the pipeline has made the front page of the local newspapers, at least two times.
My opinion, it's not fair to compare "native" burial grounds to "recent" burial grounds. I agree that they should all be protected. But, if we're dealing with graves, from say 500 years ago, there is no written record of the location. That information was passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, etc.
I can take you to local cemeteries, and show you unmarked headstones, nobody knows who is buried in that spot. Other than someone's family Bible, nobody knows. And who has the family Bible?
But I find it hard to believe that if there were known burial sites, they were deliberately disturbed. That doesn't make any sense at all to me.
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Post by musher on Sept 14, 2016 14:09:27 GMT -6
You can dig up a burial ground/cemetery IF it is done correctly and with respect. You don't just go bulldozing everywhere.
I remember a cemetery being dug up to enlarge a High School. My brother came home with a bone. Mom ripped him a new one and he was bringing the bone back in short order.
Red: Youtube the Oka crisis. There are lots of good videos. An interesting one is where the women Mohawks get their men from being killed by the Canadian army. The Iroquois are a matriarchal society. You can also see Mohawk women trading blows with Canadian soldiers. In the putting and taking, the soldiers do more taking!
History note: The Mohawks sided with the English during the war with France. They still do. If Quebec ever succeeds from Canada, the Mohawks ain't staying in Quebec. If civil war starts, it will start in Mohawk territory. They don't fool around and they know how to fight. If there is any war, in Canada or the U.S. they go. Fighting is part of who they are. Their schools encourage individual sports like wrestling as opposed to basketball. If you are not Mohawk, you cannot live on the reserve ... even if you marry a Mohawk. They are proud and fierce. Those pseudo dog handlers and goons would have required bandages.
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Post by redsnow on Sept 14, 2016 18:35:45 GMT -6
I searched the Oka Crisis the other day, I'd have been in high school at the time. Think it was 1981.
Bad situation, and I understand that it could have been a lot worse! Same as this deal in the Dakota's now.
As I said above, the world is a small place and it's been around a long long time. We'll never know, but lots of folks have traveled this planet for centuries, and no one knows of their burial grounds.
I'll add more about arrow heads when I get a chance.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 15, 2016 6:06:05 GMT -6
that's true redsnow- but if known shouldn't they be protected?
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Post by redsnow on Sept 15, 2016 8:56:38 GMT -6
Yes, I agree burial grounds should be protected.
Moundsville, WV is named after the "Mound" tribe. Their folks were buried in mounds. There is one down in the next county, just off the road, beside a school today. And a modern cemetery too.
Telling you about these arrow heads, one of my neighbors had the best private collection that I've ever seen. He had hundreds of perfect stones. And a bucket full of chipped/broken arrowheads.
He owned a sport shop, I'm sure that he bought some of them, and I know that he found a bunch of them too.
I remember the one display case he had, there were 12 or 15 arrowheads, arranged in a circle. As well as I remember the story, they were all found in the same arrangement, his theory was that someone had been buried in that spot. We'll never know.
It was 2 or 3 years ago, a friend of mine showed me a stone ax head that he'd just found. He's a local farmhand, and just happened to see it laying there in the dirt. It's pretty nice, no doubt about what it was made for, I've got pictures of it.
Without any written record, there's just no way of knowing what has taken place here or there.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 15, 2016 17:32:58 GMT -6
Tman Indian burial grounds are protected along with many other things to do with Native American culture.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 16, 2016 6:57:38 GMT -6
then what the heck are you arguing about?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 16, 2016 18:46:10 GMT -6
I am arguing about the fact that the protestors came onto private property , that was not ground inside of the Indian reservation. If what they did is deemed illegal so be it. But to enter private property was wrong.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 17, 2016 7:12:06 GMT -6
so gravesites on private property- can be desecrated at will?
cool!
didn't know that-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 17, 2016 7:26:53 GMT -6
Nope not at all, but there are legal means to come onto private property and these protestors followed none of the laws set fourth when it comes to trespass issues.
They where trespassing on private property, they need to follow the laws set fourth just like any of us must do so.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 17, 2016 8:11:23 GMT -6
so- see graves being destroyed- and the option- protest and stop it- or do nothing
TC- founder of the Do Nothing party.............
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 18, 2016 7:04:40 GMT -6
Tman you cannot be serious can you? Come onto my property without permission and start ripping down fences and the outcome would not be pretty at all for any that tried.
Because they have dug up some graves sights which We have yet to be 100 percent sure on yet, they are still exploring this, you think it within side the laws to trespass onto private property , rip down fences ? Call your attorney and handle it in a legal means. The evil gas line company could be sued for millions and millions .
Again this was not on Indian reservation ground like some reports wanted it to look like, this was on ground off the boundaries of the standing rock Indian reservation, trespassing on private property and damage to private property could easily be charges against all protestors.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 18, 2016 7:50:11 GMT -6
try to destroy a site I hold sacred to me because my ancestors were buried there and there would be one new grave
wow- we tuff talking now!
Because they have dug up some graves
yup- now you get it!
odd- the company was told in court papers where these sites were- and before the court could rule- they started the bulldozers.
you want boots up, or down?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 18, 2016 10:51:22 GMT -6
Yeh ok Tman. The court did not stop them from digging correct? Those people who entered private property are breaking the law you can say what ever you wish, the law was broken when they started to knock down fences and come on private property. It would hold up in a court of law.
Any time you wish to have a shooting competition I am in. Pistols or rifles. 25ft-600 yrds. I shoot a few 1,000 rounds a year in many calibers.
So no need to worry about my boots.LOL.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 18, 2016 10:57:34 GMT -6
edited- and you know why- sick of "the left" as your prime insult
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Post by trappnman on Sept 19, 2016 8:09:12 GMT -6
3 major pipeline spills in the last week-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 19, 2016 18:21:01 GMT -6
3 major terrors attacks by Islam based radicals. The point is?
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