20 years since inception of the BMP process 1996-2016

[trappnman]

me bad for trying-

again, your coon knowledge is about like my next door neighbors cat- probally killed a few, but more luck than skill. So you babble about what you don't have a clue on, and I'll trap.

vet council and tell me how to trap, when I tell them how to do surgery.

Good day.

[trappincoyotes39]

Yep no coon knowledge at all, a few caught by luck yep that is it.

No the vet council is not telling you how to trap or anyone else, they where and are a part of the testing protocol for coon restraint traps and all others that have been tested over the last 20 years. Not once has the vet council told you or I how to trap.

Guidelines once again, guidelines. They have a protocol and look at options but testing the device not the method. Holding coon in water for the entire time was something they wanted.

If you choose to do so your are free to do so correct?

They never even looked at snares for coons to date, yet I have snared a good pile of them thru the years. The vet council,never told me not to use snares for coons.

[trappnman]

1 question- who decided that holding coon on land was acceptable, but not in water?

and why.

if land is "testing the trap" than how can water not be "testing the trap"

[trappincoyotes39]

The dynamic that changed was the term "hypothermia" . We would then have to test every trap in all states the same way to get a consistent test score. The score would be then held up on the availability to restrain in water. They would end up being 2 seperate BMP's one dry land and one contained in water. As the results would surely be different.

Hypothermia in a human is classified as a drop in body temp of 3.7 degrees or more. What would it be in a raccoon being held in cold water in late fall or early winter? How would we test for such? Or do we just allow hypothermia as one of the built ins for the testing?

Imagine the public looking at the document?

[trappnman]

in 1000s of winter coon held overnight in water, I've NEVER had a dead one, no matter the temps. That's a fact.

[trappincoyotes39]

Dead one or not hypothermia does not alway lead to death but other health concerns are present. People or coons.

Your never going to get a BMP written where the method for a passing score involves complete restrain In a body of water for the duration of containment, the credibility factor for such scientific testing would be gone. Co2 aphyciation due to drowning would have a better chance and in fact has been discussed with beaver and muskrats.

Short Chains and water to keep them for getting to,their feet as the method? Not going to,happen, but again the beauty is you can still,use those methods on your own trap line if you wish.

[trappnman]

once again, I'll be glad to debate this with anyone that has enough coon experience to form a legitimate opinion and therefore have a legitimate discussion

you can sugar coat a turd, turn it about , polish it and admire it- but its still a turd

[trappincoyotes39]

You can talk all you want about 1,000's of coons held in water, but in a BMP scientific study? Sorry your going to lose that one all day long in the realm of public,opinion and dealing with hypothermia. Unless you have actually body temped those coons in your traps.

The discussion would stop with holding them restrained for the entire duration in water in Months of Novemeber and December. Doesn't matter how many coons you have trapped. that study would never take place under the BMP criteria . Traps not methods.


Yet again as guidelines do as you wish, just don't ever think in a scientific review your going to get anyone to along with such, as then the trap means nothing just the ability to keep the coon from chewing the foot by holding them in water and short chains.

This becomes 100 percent method , zero on the traps AKA the tool being tested.

[trappnman]

your understanding of what I am saying, is nil.
Not trying to be rude, but stating it as it is- you have very little comprehension of what I am talking about- the fact that you fixated on holding in water as a major point, when its very very minor- shows that.

Again, not trying to be rude, but your knowledge of coon behavior and coon trapping using that behavior, is again approaching nil.


and I could prove that to anyone that has that knowledge (about my methods) but I've gone down too many endless rabbit holes with you to do it again.

and keep in mind these aren't something I alone have discovered- most coon trappers with more than a few coon, can tell you the same.
THATS what points out your lack of common ground the most- its basic stuff- and you don't know it

I could lock this thread on that note, but won't for now-

[trappincoyotes39]

No have the knowledge to know that what your insisting on being a document in written word as far as passing scores for various traps all falls into methodology and has nothing to do with the selected tool getting such a score. I am also insisting that holding coons in water for the duration would never be considered a scientific study for the best management practices protocol.

You could talk to anyone you wish and you are free to use the methods you feel,is best for your situation.

I do not need 20,000 coons under my belt to know that restraining raccoons in water for a period of up to 24 hrs will never become a topic of discussion in the BMPs.

Again 20 years and counting and no state has to make the BMP's written rule or law. Guidelines and great PR put out from AFWA.

[trappnman]

let no one say I'm not fair>

so- list my methods as you understand them.

its very hard to debate you, because you see what you want to see, not what is posted. I've said this twice, and will repeat it again- you listen up: holding in water is not a major point, its very very minor

so take that off the table-

and list my methods that reduce or eliminate coon chewing-

Go!

[trappnman]

and consider this as well-

your argument, same as Dave's is that by limiting how the trap can be set by certain protocol, that this then isolated the trap insofar as variables are concerned. That the trap would then be tested, and not the trapper?

Is this a correct assumption on my part?

[trappincoyotes39]

No the trap,would not be tested because you are isolating the trap!

The only way it gets a passing score is by providing no opportunity for thr coon to chew. Not the trap at all, 100 percent method related. Be like staying ai can get a 3 Bridger to pass if I rig the trap on a spring thst elevates the coon off the ground as he hangs, that is not testing the trap either , that is isolating the coon from being able to chew that is a method and the trap means nothing at that point.

The design of the trap DP's which allow the coon not to chew by the design of the trap, doesn't matter if in water or land the coon cannot get to its foot by deisgn of the tool, methods be damned. That is 100 percent the trap that keeps the coon from chewing. Same as a double jaw will,have an effect on chewing as well. Doesn't matter where you set it the trap design effects and limits chewing which we know coons will do if allowed.

Your variable is clearly evident and the only way it passes is by selective setting technique, which has nothing to do with the trap, no other trap was tested as such.

The isolation comes from the coons inability to get to its foot, that can happen one of 2 ways the tool design itself or the methods used to keep him from getting to the foot.

One fits the criteria for BMP trap testing the other does not get close to the protocols set fourth.

[trappnman]

just as I thought- me bad for trying.

you not only don't have a clue, your can't even answer a basic question on why protocol- instead, you ramble about dps.

you cannot even answer as to what YOU THINK my methods are.

bah- like kindergarden

I'll not waste my time any longer

[trappincoyotes39]

Ok Tman tell us your in the water method. Then we can debate if it is the trap keeping the score low or the method you use? It really is that simple.

Again this post was started out to point out facts, that the BMP's have not become law in any state, that they have made it 20 years and counting, that they have kept fur markets open for all North American trappers, and that AFWA has done a great job at promoting trapping with the studies and PR material available, these are all facts.

I for one am glad that trappers for a change received some funding to promote us! That is a great thing.

[trappnman]

I get so sick and tired of repeating myself- do you understand, that water is MINOR?


you cannot even answer a simple question as to what is the purpose of a protocol

here is an easier one- have you ever seen a coon?

[trappincoyotes39]

The protocol is to test the trap period.

Nope never seen a coon in my life. If water is minor then why do you want to test them being held in water? I think you need to re read the mission statement of the entire trapping BMP process. It is on the AFWA website. It clearly defines all your looking for.

We are sitting her arguing over something that will never see the light of day. I will end by stating see above mentioned................

[trappnman]

your argument, same as Dave's is that by limiting how the trap can be set by certain protocol, that this then isolated the trap insofar as variables are concerned. That the trap would then be tested, and not the trapper?


then how on earth can you say No! to this/

which you did.

but now apparently say yes-

If water is minor then why do you want to test them being held in water?

I can only shake my head.
the mission statement is crap as well-

which is it?

[trappincoyotes39]

Everything you disagree with is crap LOL.

Where were you when the testing was being done? Did you offer your services to test traps? I think You really have little knowledge on the entire BMP process and what it took to get this all under way and appease all groups involved.

No one group was going to walk away with all they wanted no way no how, or this would have fell apart and the EU ban would have done in the wild fur market to a very large degree. You talk right on past that.

I get it you do not like the coon BMP therefore it is crap, the mission statement is crap, you sound like the FTA LOL.

Yet the entire process has helped trappers, trapping and kept our fur markets open to around the world. Can't be too crappy LOL.

[trappnman]

unlike you, I recognize crap based on decades of experience doing, not talking about it

yes TC- I did I talked to Hamilton multiple times-

you want to discuss bmps- and you are unable to even answer what is a protocol suppose to do.