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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 30, 2014 6:26:38 GMT -6
I think this propane deal is nothing but a money grab! Who heats with propane and what have you paid and how easy is it to get propane as of now in your area?
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Post by trappnman on Jan 30, 2014 7:14:11 GMT -6
free market- the US exports 3xs the propane it did just a few short years ago, without increasing production 1 iota
A friend locked his in at $.149 this past sept- around here is just under $5 now, over $5 up north.
be careful TC...you are starting to sound like a socialist-
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Post by bblwi on Jan 30, 2014 10:02:17 GMT -6
Just what American businesses like a time to use fear and shortage to get a boost in income and then get angry over increased taxes! Around here a firm secured 24,000 gallons to bring to customers in northeastern WI where there are serious shortages. Minimum delivery 100 gallons, maximum delivery 300 gallons with a price of $6.99 per gallon.
I do taxes for a farmer who operates a soybean roaster for processing roasted soybeans. I will do his work in late February and will talk to him about the range in prices he paid in 2012, 2013 and in 2014. He called me the other day and wanted my opinion about just shutting down and risk loosing all of his customers. We will review to see if his son wants to run the business when he retires and if not we may just pull the plug. He either loses $5-$6 per ton or needs to raise his price about $7-$8 per ton to make enough profit to maintain the equipment. So here is an example of the private sector absolutely stifling growth and job creation. Ask a night club owner serving meals to snowmobilers in Vilas County how much profit there is today in serving beef steaks in todays beef market with these energy costs.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 30, 2014 19:55:02 GMT -6
All about free market but a common sense free market, meaning once shortages where for seen over seas shipping should have slowed way down. Americans first and for most then the rest of the world. I still have a hard time buying the notion that this is nothing but a money grab, overseas shipping or not............
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Post by FWS on Jan 30, 2014 23:28:50 GMT -6
What you describe is not a free market.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 31, 2014 5:56:17 GMT -6
Again free market works in many ways, this issue is free market turned upside down, I just heard in a two days span the price locally went down to 2.10 and then went back up a 1.05 in one day. Zero stabilization people do need to look into the wholesales of propane and see what is going on. Many want to blame the local service they are at the mercy of the wholesaler that is where one needs to look for illegal market practices.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Jan 31, 2014 6:06:14 GMT -6
I heat with propane.
Highest I heard at the local co op was 4.25, heard its down to 3.60 now.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 31, 2014 9:27:48 GMT -6
a friend of mines parents, live in NW Mn, and paid $5.10 last Monday
TC- what common sense things should come into play? keep in mind, that any answer, will also apply to a myriad of other things
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 31, 2014 16:46:15 GMT -6
Stop selling when in a shortage to others outside our country knowing how are economy is right now. Price gouging is unfair free market is not, justify why these prices and have solid proof to back it up, if not pay a hefty fine just like they do to many other business for unfair practices.
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Post by FWS on Jan 31, 2014 17:09:44 GMT -6
Why should you get a special deal as an American ? You should be prepared to pay market price, make other arrangements, or just resolve to be cold.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 31, 2014 17:17:03 GMT -6
Stop selling when in a shortage to others outside our country knowing how are economy is right now. Price gouging is unfair free market is not, justify why these prices and have solid proof to back it up, if not pay a hefty fine just like they do to many other business for unfair practices.
TC, I for the most part agree with you- but by that same token, then why should it not apply to other things- for example- if oil exports were reduced by half, the price at the pump would be a vast relief to many middle class folks. What do they pay per gal in other oil rich countries?
and you could legitimately argue, that the same reasoning you apply to propane, applies to other things as well.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 31, 2014 17:42:51 GMT -6
Tman I have no doubts oil is in the same boat. As well as a few other things that people rely on and make a major impact on everyone's lives.
FWS why should we get special treatment? Because we live in the county where the propane is produced. Pretty simple take care of your own first and foremost, just as the Middle East and other countries do with their people on gas and energy prices. Many of these countries subsidize their people in Saudi you get gas for less than .70 per gallon and then sell to other countries for a lot more money.
We should do the same for some of our resources and we do to an extent on commodities like food.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 1, 2014 8:22:58 GMT -6
so do you favor price controls on propane, gas, etc?
in effect, socializing the energy market?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 1, 2014 8:31:24 GMT -6
Energy is one area I support price controls yes as it is too vital for our country and the people who live here not to. Increased energy cost effects every person no matter what. I also want to see increased drilling and tapping of our resources and far less dependence on other countries for our energy needs. Smart and wise energy choices and yes at times they won't be popular with the anti drilling people, the technology has come along ways to do such with minimal disturbances while no risk is a stretch we must weigh out cost versus effect.
Like water in California drastic times call for more drastic measures to ensure our country stays viable and less dependent on other countries for key things like energy.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 1, 2014 8:48:36 GMT -6
I agree- but doesn't that then also apply to housing substidies, minimum wage etc.....
and to get things like energy controls, do we then need to give up other programs, such as WS?
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 1, 2014 9:22:01 GMT -6
Health care costs me more a year than energy.
Steve what I posted was for my local coop. I heard reports of seven bucks by lake of the woods. Can't verify the validity though.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 1, 2014 9:24:50 GMT -6
Not for me as your taking it too far in my mind on some of those things. Minimum wage effectively does nothing for workers period. it is a feel good measure by the left has been for years, as you increase minimum wage your increasing cost, same with housing loans given out willy nilly, when more people qualify even of not able to make those payments because our govt ie tax payers are backing all these loans you drive up housing prices and not allowing the market to set the tone. You have more demand then than supply and people pay far more than they are worth, we have been through that. Housing prices in many areas have dropped around 10 percent or more in many areas of the country since the housing crisis. That is a good thing, inflation serves no one. getting back out of what you paid over 30 years is not realistic when you figure in taxes paid, insurance, repair cost etc. Wages are free market but goods and services can't get to far ahead or people get over extended. The higher price a new truck sells for the higher those used trucks sell for, if we keep paying auto workers 35-40 per hr and input cost rise everyone new or used pays more for vehicles and have less income for other things. We need to be as productive as we can be and cut waste yes waste is in the eye of the beholder, Wal mart the giant knows how to squeak out productivity like no other. A friend works for a meat company that sells to wal mart they had a meeting and wal mart wanted to know tray size, and how the shrink wrap was used and sized on the packages and if they change there tray size and use a different shape plastic wrap they could save amount of money each year, then pass some of that on to wal mart at a cost savings to both, giving wal mart the upper hand in the sale. I think more companies need to really look at cost and minute ways of saving money without effecting the product quality to many are doing ok and get complacent in these regards.
Wages need to bounce back but when we have higher unemployment wages do not rise at the rates one normally might see, as there is little free market in these situations more workers than work and everyone knows this and can suppress wages some what and at times out of need because of a slowing economy. What we need is job creation and we need it now and find ways to keep productive in this country that should be job one for congress and the POTUS no matter who is in office.
Staes are doing what they can to attract companies kansas removed state income tax to lure more business and to help people in their state. Now Missouri is thinking bout what they need to do to compete with Kansas for more business and job growth! the Feds need to make jobs more of a priority which in my book they all get an F trade for the last 3 years.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 1, 2014 10:08:38 GMT -6
wow Steven- I'm glad I have natural now- but even that's going up
TC- my point is this- the same arguments you can make for govt regulation of propane, can easily and justifiably made for many other things- including HC-
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 1, 2014 14:31:39 GMT -6
Natural is about twenty percent cheaper on an average year.
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Post by northof50 on Feb 2, 2014 0:55:23 GMT -6
Is there not more propane pumped with the natural gas pipelines in the winter, then taken out at the final destination? With a colder than average winter for the last 2 months, which has set a record I hate to see what our Canadian prices will be for the BBQ season next summer... Mid January a 100 pounder was $ 100 for a fill at the station...$ 75 last year
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