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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 16, 2013 19:34:00 GMT -6
Tman I don't get health care from my wife. if we did it would cost 12,000 per year and that is a 5,000 per person deductible meaning my cost would be the first 37,000 per year before any coverage would kick in. Yeh that is real affordable LOL. Most all school health care is crappy except the east coast. As schools are strapped on both federal funding and state funding yet both keep doing mandates to schools and expect the locals to,foot the bill more and more.
I pay 372.00 per month for my family, we have no,deductible I have a PPO and we pay 20.00 for office visits, ER max of 200 per occurrence and 750 max for ambulance ride to a PPO hospitol. I get many free exams including a colonoscopy every 5 years or as a doctor recommends needed to find an answer. I pay 200 for a cat scan. 300 for MRI and I have access to 175 docotors and 5 hospitols. I have a 10,000 per person max out of pocket annually.
I save my family 1,000's each year. I search out better than avg coverage when I look for a job. I look for health care first pay second. Would do me or my wife no good to make 8,000 more per year if it all goes to health care premiums.
Your next assumption is partially right! yes they need to,show 50 or more people for the AHCA to effect the volunteer firefighters and emergancy staff. But when you look at many volunteer orgs they have many people on their books! In faith,sd where I lived we had 19 people on the books meaning between ambulance and fire fighters we hd 19 people who,could take calls and also had the proper training and licensing to do the work. Which you need to get on the schedule. They all count as employees as long as they take 1 call per year! Now this is for rural ranchers and a town of 489 people. I know other areas that have no,problem with having 50 or more on their books trained and ready to take a shift if needed. Volunteers can be relied on to take 25 or more calls with working FT jobs so many have plenty of people to cover shifts and carry pagers on a rotational basis. look at the news on the internet on how many could be effected if the law is not changed for volunteer orgs. Yes many get on call pay most are 2.00 per hr to be on call and get paid a run fee if they take some one to ER or hospitol etc. Most fire fighters don't get paid yet they are still and employee for workers comp and coverage while on calls.
No one said it would effect all of them but is something that needs to be addressed by the govt and the IRS which collects taxes on any money made by volunteers. better to get it done than let the issue linger. I have no doubts that it will be corrected, my issue is why wouldn't this already have been addressed? The answer is BIG govt and one agency not knowing about the other when it comes to this very expansive issue.
I do hope they get the people,needed to make this thing fly, other wise those that have signed up then what?
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 16, 2013 23:58:28 GMT -6
"I have no doubts that it will be corrected, my issue is why wouldn't this already have been addressed?"
Neither do I have any doubt if will be corrected. When a new program, especially as vast as this one, gets implemented they just can't think of every contingency that needs to be covered all at once. You deal with things as they crop up. Insurance companies cancelling policies that don't meet all the requirements of the ACHA instead up updating the coverage, or whatever their logic in doing so was, is one. This question of volunteers is another, so is states not impementing their own exchanges.
The original bill was 1990 pages, including white space,index, etc. I think they tried hard to get it right, it could have been longer, but it was a start.
Cheers, Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 17, 2013 5:32:42 GMT -6
Pam obvious enough to many folks that volunteer safety should be exempt from such things, but until defined by LAW as exempt their not. I can see the worry of those who run these orgs and put together budgets. The old saying is nothing is a done deal until it is done.
Vast is an understatement by the time they get done for sure....................
We shall see if it meets the criteria set out or not. That is where judgement will come from many on this issue. Actual cost versus effect...................................
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Post by trappnman on Dec 19, 2013 10:59:51 GMT -6
one the one hand, you say volunteers are working 30 plus hours a week, and on the other you state they should be tax exempt?
very few vol depts receive no compensation- and if the don't, and are true vol, then they are NOT an employee
I think, quite honestly, that this is a mini mole hill trying to be made into a mountain.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 19, 2013 14:50:27 GMT -6
tman many volunteer fire depts take on additional work for the sake of their own communities. I know where I was these guys would fight in california, black hills and brought back the money to use to buy newer equipment from larger depts at a reduced rate. This then effects everyones home owners insurence for the better! That is a good thing. All insurence companies will rate your fire depts accreidations and equipment and staffing the better the rating the cheaper the home owners policies are. Those same volunteers do the work to save their familes money and others while providig a better serviced staff and up to date equipment to fight the fires back home.
They kept some of it to cover cost I wouldn't expect anything less, but 1,000's brought back to buy better equipment.What some of these guys get paid to risk their lives on a 20,000 acre plus fire is pure peanuts and shouldn't count as income in my book, as they are serving the public in a very critical role and doing so on a volunteer basis. Far differen than being a FT employee.
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Post by bblwi on Dec 19, 2013 18:45:27 GMT -6
In SD do the volunteers receive W-2s or 1099's?
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 19, 2013 20:34:52 GMT -6
Bryce that one I do,not remember from my SD days, yet here is a letter about this I find it most confusing as usual the IRSntalks in some circles hence the need for clarification. www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/10-0079.pdfIf I remember right they go out as Faith Volunteer fire fighters when working other areas so the money is give to the Faith Volunteer fire fighting . They do request funds from the city of Faith and work under the umbrella of the city in some fashion, yet the city isn't employing any of them as listed PT or FT positions within the city govt. State laws do vary as well. Our school districts had some state laws that I have never seen in most other states either. many are due to the large disparity of towns west river versusopulation base of towns size and locations east of the river. Not common in most states.
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Post by bblwi on Dec 19, 2013 20:39:43 GMT -6
Huge difference in employee-employer status from 1099 to W-2. 1099 recipients are contracted services and not employees like W-2 recipients are. From your disscussion regarding how variable the hours can be and how the fact that except for training and other scheduled events there is no set time for an emergency event and thus I am doubtful there is a W-2 relationship unless the department chose to do so and then they would need to address the issue.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 20, 2013 2:40:35 GMT -6
Our EMS was a separate entity from the fire department for 18 years, then they eventually merged. Our volunteer EMT's were not firefighters. Some firefighters were also trained EMT's, not because they necessarily wanted to be, but it looked good on their resumes, which is one reason why I finally gave it up. The attitude was just not the same.
After reading what the IRS says, I can better understand why fire departments are concerned about the ACA:
Issues for Firefighters
Firefighters
This discussion addresses some of the common questions we receive from firefighters and their employing organizations.
Compensation
Generally, tax laws apply to firefighters in the same manner as for other types of workers. It does not matter whether firefighters are termed “volunteers”, are considered employees, or are identified by any other name, if the work they do is subject to the will and control of the payer, under the common-law rules, they are employees for Federal tax purposes. The determination as to whether workers are common-law employees or independent contractors is made applying the same standards used for other workers. See IRS Publication 15, Employer’s Tax Guide, for more information on determining whether a worker is a common-law employee.
Similarly, it does not matter whether they are paid on a “call” basis, monthly, hourly, etc.; or whether the worker is full-time or part-time. These payments are wages that should be reported on Form W-2, subject to withholding for Federal income tax, social security, and Medicare purposes. Employers are responsible for withholding on these wages and filing Form 941.
If a worker is a common-law employee, any amounts received that are not exempt under a special provision, are reported on Form W-2 as wages. It does not matter what the payments are called.
Cheers, Pam
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Post by trappnman on Dec 20, 2013 9:22:07 GMT -6
I guess I don't understand the point, of why income should not be taxed.
volunteering implys FREE
if you volunteer, and get paid for doing so- than you are a paid worker
pam, I adress the above to you, since you stated you understand the concerns so I ask you-
what concerns?
if my job is picking up litter on the highway at low wages (which I guess might be TC's point) then if I say I'm "volunteering" to do it at the low wages (and certainly picking up litter is a public service)then I shouldn't be taxed either?
I take nothing away from volunteer fire depts- I support them 100%, know they are professionals, but know also they get compensated for it as well
TC- only got ONE thing to say to you and anyone following this thread- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Have a Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year!
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Post by RdFx on Dec 20, 2013 9:41:29 GMT -6
I was on voluteer fire department for seven years and didnt recieve any payment what so ever. I know the volunteer fire departments in the townships around me dont get paid also..... We apply for grants to get fire fighting equipment ect and training sessions but no pay for volunteers.
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 20, 2013 13:05:13 GMT -6
"I guess I don't understand the point, of why income should not be taxed."
Of course, any income should be taxed. But this discussion is about whether or not "volunteers" are considered employees for health insurance purposes, not whether or not any "reimbursement" they may get should be taxed.
My EMT District reimbursement was reported on a 1099 misc income form, not a W-2. If the IRS requires any sort of volunteer firefighter reimbursement to be reported on W 2 forms, that implies that they consider them the same as any full or part-time employee. The ACA says that if an entity has 50+ employees they need to furnish health insurance or be fined.
When our EMS was combined with the fire department there were 45 EMT's and 40 firefighters, 99% of them volunteers. No doubt there are many units that also have more than 50 including volunteers. If their municipality is required to offer health insurance to all of them, and if required to pay any portion of it for their "employees" it's really not affordable I'd say for most services that have volunteers involved.
The obvious solution is for any service that reimburses volunteers in any form, is to stop. In our District they offered the $2 an hour on call as an incentive as a way of rewarding faithful volunteers. We were having trouble retaining volunteers, because so much training, continuing education, and time was involved. None of us did it for the money, but it was sure nice to receive it.
So, as I said, I can see why it needs to be clarified whether or not volunteers are considered the same as paid employees for the ACA health insurance purposes. Although, the article I posted earlier did give municipalities a couple solutions to consider. It likely isn't as big of a problem as they think.
Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 20, 2013 18:49:40 GMT -6
Merry Christmas to you Tman and all others. Sure Pur busying on pancake feeds and had coyote calling contest to raise money for the fire dept. The EMT was not all volunteer yet we aren't talking them we are talking fire fighters, the pay was reimbursements mostly and paid meals while out fighting other fires out side of their area and was reimbursed through the volunteer dept. No hourly wage for the fire guys.
yes Pam there is a reason this needs to be addressed so eeryone knows where they sit. Hence the reason for the news coverage on this issue.
We also did the grant writing and received some nice things for our fire fighters and even ambulance crew.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 22, 2013 8:27:15 GMT -6
so grants, etc are ok- as long as you agree with them- but the ones you don't agree with, are wrong and socialism?
pam- TC brought up the point of not taxing "volunteer" income
seems pretty simple- income is for workers a hats off to you is for volunteers
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 22, 2013 17:31:46 GMT -6
Grants come form various sources some state , some fed grants, some private grants as well. The thing with grants is they are a competitive thing, not a blanket spending of tax payer money. I find grants to be a better way as those that spend the time writing the best grant as to why and how they will spend the money in a precise manner are more adept to get said grant,far better than just saying Becuase one exists you get X amount. Grants are capped where added spending somehow many times keeps getting added to until the next best thing comes alongmandthen they rob money from one program to start a new one.............
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