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Post by trappnman on Mar 13, 2012 11:42:35 GMT -6
let me put out a general question-
Assume a good coyote population, and that you see scat and tracks at a couple locations.
Are they equal as a general rule?
Or will one be a better location?
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Post by jsevering on Mar 14, 2012 7:03:56 GMT -6
gunning loud the first two to three weeks with unnatural compounded loud lure / lures… actually enjoy it, feel I get away with a lot in the first few weeks.... but generally in my small world i pull back into my core area... not the ones i gunned through... pray like hell someone didn't return the favor....
i generally still like an unnatural spiked loud bait... with one of my sets... i consider that different from a common compounded loud lure with the common loud spike directly at the set... i think that's where we may disagree... i think its possible to be just as loud with singular musk's and subtle mixes, near by i also think natural bait itself can be loud at the right time on location.... and urine as an attractor still has a place with me... like you said everyone has there views...
to answer your question on my thoughts on tracks and turds... generally one will be a better location, but I can tell you, here, if I see tracks and turds there getting set… you didn’t say how big your macro location was or if you were even talking on micros within, but seeing how fox trapping came up, im thinking micros within… in any event im guessing your macro’s are bigger than mine the way properties and such are broken up here and my actual topography and knowing your more than likely looking for the stall out on a larger accessible agricultural scale…
let me classify that some so it doesn’t get pooh pooh’ed into fox trapping you know different strokes…. our contours and property issues screw up a lot, but tend to benefit us some with saddles and contour trapping to a degree off the river flats mostly grown up dairy farms, if there is an old farm even utilizing a section of flat, nice thing each valley tends to also have a tributary through it… don’t get me wrong i understand the value of good draw stations and a loud lure, think most anyone that trapped fisher and could read k9 sign would…
your idea of a stall out area and mine also tend to differ some.. we don’t have the open agriculture or the number of dead piles… I understand the concept of bait them up…
I tend to use the highway road crews road kill deer dumps and the location of some usually give me a choice of two stall outs as your describing one low off the flat or one off the top maybe from the valley or valley’s on the other side depending what’s there or for them to work… let me ask you this if your in the mountains would you rather be on the top working two maybe three sides or on the bottom working one…
agriculture I understand it some and have trapped a few bigger farms… usually the first couple of weeks of season if im not committed elsewhere with work… will freely admit first time I seen that much open land trapping, I defiantly had a fox trapping mentality and enjoyed myself immensely... will freely admit to a degree i still do in some what open farm land.
let me ask you this... your running and gunning... you missed the first four weeks due to what ever... your dead piles are froze stiff as a board or lets say the farmer buried them, birds aren’t working them… your location the same, your draw piles…your methods… again its week five… jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 14, 2012 9:50:27 GMT -6
What does 5 drops of lure give you, that using a "good pour" won't do?Turn that around Tman, when on "LOCATION" what does a good pour do that less won't do? Don't gt so hung up on counting drops You either are of the belief that subtle is better than loud, or the opposite is true. I'm not going to try to change your mind, but the guys that pound coyotes, take it as a given to use goodly amounts of lure and often more than one.First off never claimed to be a great "getter man" but when one looks at where a good getter man takes piles and piles of coyotes with a specific tool that needs not only an approach but a "PULL" to be effective one can in corperate those same locations with a foot trap and do darn well. So I don't think it is all about volume what so ever, in fact I believe it is as much about location and what your offering them at that "crucial" location that works. I do agree 2 are better than one the majority of the time, meaning 2 different smells at a set gets that milling effect going and when you can split up those smells I find that even better, but one doesn't need pounds and multiple ounces at the "SET" to be effective ..........................
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Post by trappnman on Mar 14, 2012 10:10:46 GMT -6
First of all, let me make it clear that much of what I have come to believe over the past few years, is not original to me. Those following these threads, and here is the only place I discuss coyotes, knows I'm shamelessly reiterating what others have said before me, and I've given credit as such. But in those 2 years, I've seen the proof of what they say. And what I deduce from the studies, IS my opinion.
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Jim- my posting about the coyotes at the hay bale, was a perfect example of what I'm talking about with tracks and sign. I've gopher trapped this farm for 7-8 years. I always see fresh tracks & some scat on that sand road.
I set it up 4-5 years ago, with 2 sets of 2 traps on that road, ran it for 7 days, caught 1 coyote. I'd SEE fresh sign while I was there.
Set it up two years ago with 4 traps on the crossroads, maybe 75 yards from those bales ran it for 6 days, caught a fox, couple of skunks and some coon.
What was going on?
so now 1080s words were really starting to set in- I had sign, I had tracks- and I was doing squat there-
Why?
I thought about it, and last summer while gopher trapping it, I had time to look at it from a 'safe" view (as defined before) and to look at those type of locations with a keener eye.
Based on that- I set 2 traps by the bales- and had, I don't remember exactly at least 4 if not 5 in 6 checks.
so in 2 years with 52 trap nights on the road with the constant traveling sign I caught 1 coyote.
last year, moving off the road, with 12 trap nights, I caught 4-5.
I have no doubt, all three years, based on the sign in the sand, I had the same number of coyotes going by my sets. The only difference, was where I set (micro) location based on the general "what I can see" location.
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Jim, much of my locations are very similar to you. 75% or so of what I trap, is ridge top farms, rolling hills going into deep, mostly dry, coulees (ravines) that are for the most part hardwood forests. Our area of SE Mn was among the first to develop and use contour/strip farming , simply because the methods at that time encouraged so much erosion. One town in the 1920s, was flooded 27 times in one year due to floods coming off the hills due to farming practices- much of the old town is under mud to this day. It and the surrounding area was bought up by the state in the late 1920s, and made into the Whitewater WMA- one of the biggest and wilderness type areas in the bottom 2/3 of MN. So I understand well about having to be on the top, to try to cover as much as you can.
the difference is for me, most farms still have cows- not so much dairies, but beef or raising heifers so always a dead cow or two around. While dead piles are best, any cattle around adds to the interest point of the area. Manure piles btw are big draws as well, much is gleaned out of the manure by coyotes.
We also have a lot of big 400 cow> dairies as well, and those are more on the flatter edges of my line.
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My definition of a stall out area is simple- an area where coyotes spend a lot of time in a relaxed mode. As I stated before, I knew these areas were there- the collaring showed that quite well in where the coyotes went after collaring- but didn't know why such areas were better than other areas til the hints in 1080s posts and the studies.
So you want an area where they are not just booking through- like my sand road- but an area in which the naturally will mill around in, spend time in, and be in (and this makes logical sense because the mood is WHY its a stall out area, not visa versa) the proper mode to work sets.
Dead piles are many times not stall out areas, they are attraction points. Thus the advice of baiting up stall out areas, to increase the milling around time.
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let me ask you this... your running and gunning... you missed the first four weeks due to what ever... your dead piles are froze stiff as a board or lets say the farmer buried them, birds aren’t working them… your location the same, your draw piles…your methods… again its week five… Jim
I'm not sure of the question.......
Would I change my methods if I couldn't start til the end of the season? I wouldn't change my mechanics, that's for sure- but I would have to look at whats there vis vis landscape features.
I don't like snow. Yeah, its "fun" to see tracks, but every other aspect of snow trapping sucks, including the biggest- reduced/lack of access. Once snow comes, I'm blocked from most of my locations.
but lets say no snow, only froze.
Deadpiles still have the same draw. Even more so in cold. And just to note, many if not most of my dead piles are actually compost piles, so they are in effect buried from the get go.
Generally, my features are the same more or less from the time I start til I finish. Seems like certain areas get things down at different times, so I work with that. The flatter areas, containing more big dairies, typically have filed work down by the time I start in mid Oct- might have some manure to haul, but everything harvested and all already plowed. I move into the hiller areas, with the strips and contours as the season progresses, and with a lot of beans and strip corn on these type farms, again harvest is mostly finished by the time I get there. and many of my old locations were developed over time, in part based on their harvesting/land use patterns.
so for me, day one is pretty much like the last, as far as types of habitat and land use conditions I deal with.
so if your question is would I set the same later as to earlier, yes.
And if your question was if I only had the last week to trap, would I manage the line the same? yes, even more so.
There are still going to be stall out areas- that's the nature of the beast- they are still going to be moving, hunting, etc-
I just have to be there.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 14, 2012 10:18:32 GMT -6
Lets not get caught up in counting drops-
I'm quite clear in that I beleive MORE odor, is BETTER odor. That a few drops of lure, while having the same smell to it, doesn't attract the same as large amounts, of the same odor.
In and of itself, in general trapping, I firmly believe that the AMOUNT of odor at a scent, plays an imortant role in ALL coyotes working that set.
so what minusule amounts of lure does, is NOT trip the trigger of all coyotes that are aware of it.
You aren't going to change that belief.
And i'm not going to change yours- but agian, since you declined to answer- what ADVANTAGE, other than saving a few pennies on lure, does using small amounts of lure (getitng 30-40 sets out of a oz bottle or whatever) give you/ WHY just use a small amount?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 15, 2012 6:05:45 GMT -6
Tman not 30-40 sets but more than 16 out of 4 oz's...................
Also just because I use "less" lure doesn't mean I and others don't use bait or another lure. Bait is far cheaper than lure and has plenty of attraction.
What is our definition of small amount and goodly amount?
Our we out to attract mainly coyotes or all and anything?
The advanatge of "less" over more at times is sets that are worked quicker, with less hesitation, and less non target issues. Not all lures are the same to me. I vary amounts used depending on weather, makeup etc.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 15, 2012 7:20:53 GMT -6
The advanatge of "less" over more at times is sets that are worked quicker, with less hesitation, and less non target issues.
now see- I disagree 100%- but thanks for giving me your reasons.
But if you are using 1/4 an oz at a set on average-and 2 lures like you said, then thats 1/2 oz of lure at a hole and I'd agree, thats a "goodly" amount.
My point was the 5-10 dropor so type luring- I firmly believe that #1 they work the set slower, with more hesitiaiton with "small" amounts ofl ure.
I also don't think that amount of lure matters 1 iota insofar as attracting non targets- coon, posusm, skunk, rabbits etc are THERE- they are going to work the HOLE no matter what and how much lure is used.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 15, 2012 8:45:16 GMT -6
More like 1/8th oz or so and bait most of my sets have some form of bait, I feel bait will be worked longer than a majority of most exotic type lures, I look at lure as something that peaks them and bait maintains them for the time needed to get caught.
I am the opposite on more lure not attracting non targets, anything high with skunk will attract more non targets and alot of urine has done the same from porkys to coon, I have lessend not eliminated many non targets by what I use and the set type I use.
Work the set slower? Because I use 1/8 oz of lure they will work things slower than 1/4 to 1/2 oz? I guess I have No game camera footage yet! But I don't worry about how quick they work the set when they approach as long as they get caught. Meaning if it takes them 3 mins to step on the pan or 1 min doesn't matter as long as they step on the pan square. Guiding helps in this area as well, if you can make them work over the trap to get to the attractor that is my main concern.
I want to offer them something that will want them to investigate up close and spend the time needed to get caught, again time is relative as long as the location is good and I use the terrain to the sets advantage.
All I can offer is go out to western SD and set 25 traps with ample pee and 25 without keep locations equal and see what catches more non targets. From Porkys, coons, skunks, cattle, rabbitts etc. I spent alot of time working through what would limit my non target catches in all seasons as I wanted to maximize coyotes and lessen the rest. Lure type, set location, set presentation all make a differance IMO and from the results I've seen.
In some areas with the amount of non targets could be much tougher for sure I agree with that. Yet one can still make a differance all be it a smaller differance.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 15, 2012 10:00:48 GMT -6
Guess we will have to disagree on non targets- I see zero difference in large amounts of lure vs smaller amounts in the take of incidentals. if you set on top of incidentals, you will catch them no matter what you are doing.
consider how an incidental works a set, vs a coyote- once it smells anything with fresh dirt, its going to be worked all over- small feet, small steps, totally different hunting patterns. I would think the biggest advantage in not catching incidentals and coyotes only, is to crank up that tension and put the traps deeper
let me ask you this- how many incidentals are there at stall out locations?
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if you are using 4oz for 16 sets, then thats 1/4 of an oz at the set- and you stated you liked 2 lures in a previous post- so add that in as well. and 1/4 of an oz of lure (going by what you said for a 4oz bottle, plus the 2nd lure whatever that amount is) and I'd consider THAT, using a lot of lure. I probably use more, but certainly 1/4. of an oz is in the ballgame of using a 'lot of lure"
so I don't see what you are debating- it seems like we both use about the same
but what I was debating with you, was your previous posts where you stated you used far less lure than that. If thats inaccurate, then there is no debate between us on that issue
going back to incidentals- are you really saying that 1/4 of an oz of lure doesn't attract them, but 1/2 oz does? or that a good squirt of urine at the back doesn't but a mist will?
dig a fresh hole, add nothing but a trap- and you will still catch many incidentals if you set on their locations.
how many times have I seen someone gearing up for coyote trapping, and buying an oz or two of lure- THATs the underluring I'm talking about.
or the advice that if coyotes don't work your set- its because one used too much lure- which again, I see no validity to in the field. If a coyote isn't working a set- the problem isn't too much lure.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 15, 2012 10:18:14 GMT -6
let me ask you this- how many incidentals are there at stall out locations?
WOW really? No hard and fast with this at all, depends on habitat, location and the list goes on and on.
The too much lure thing has little real relevance at best a short period of time issue for sure. I can tell you I have set out draw stations that don't get touched for a few days but when they do it looks like piranhas went through those draws. Once they start in I can keep them baited up with far less issues than when first placed. Takes sometime for them to build up the "need" to investigate and can happen with some trap sets, but the larger the "mess" the more hesitation they will have for a period of time. A combination of things.
I would set up my draw stations have snares ready to go and traps but would wait until I had their full attention before I worried about catching them, seemed to work out much better that way.
I would leave those areas be for 5-7 days then check on them and hang and set the equipment already placed. Maximize my catch potential.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 15, 2012 11:00:23 GMT -6
let me ask you this- how many incidentals are there at stall out locations?
WOW really? No hard and fast with this at all, depends on habitat, location and the list goes on and on. -------------------------------------------
a question was asked of me, and I'll ask it of you-
in a true stall out area, do you think incidentals would be hanging around on a regular basis?
In an area with multiple coyotes from multiple grooups, using it on a regular basis?
Or does the constant coyote activity, preclude much use by incidentals?
now travelways, watering holes, dead piles- will of course get heavy incidental use, but my take of incidentals in stall out areas, was negligible, and a pleasant surprize.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 15, 2012 21:30:04 GMT -6
OK................
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Post by 1080 on Mar 15, 2012 23:07:26 GMT -6
Tman, In my absence I see you have been busy After "Our" back and forth over "Singular Debate Points",I figured you and I were not getting anywhere and at that point we were not. However,after reading Response#97,100,104 I must say I am impressed to put it mildly!! You have been listening AND taking Notes Even addressing weakness in your program as well as your game plan for improvement going forward. Stellar..I mean it !! After we lost it earlier,I really didn`t have hope you were getting it,or following what I had been trying to convey to you and others. BUT,you were and to mention what you had gotten from the studies ...I`m Impressed,,,,,, You mentioned somewhere along the way you were excited and looking forward to the coming season.I am looking forward to it for you and feel it WILL be your best season yet. Maybe going forward you and I can "Discuss" instead of Debate Everything? Also a mention to All those who sent the PM`s thanking me for the studies. Your Welcome,no problem. I have hard copies of virtually "All" pertaining to coyote,unfortunatly most aren`t available online so I have provided links to those that were pertinent to the original topic and an easy read.Some who contacted me mentioned that, as well as "Practical Application" they were anxious to use..Enjoy Once again,Tman,I guess we have made progress,,,,,Fantastic
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Post by trappnman on Mar 16, 2012 18:28:03 GMT -6
Well, I'm trying.....thanks for the kind words.
I've been asked why I stagnated at a certain number, and the answer to that is simple.
I ran 2 loops, for 2 weeks each, overlapping the middle running 3-4 weeks. Doing this, I could get out 80-100 traps, cover the ground well, setting up all possible approaches, and at the same time was running half as many coon traps.
What I was doing, was taking the same amount, more or less, out of the same areas year after year, and staying longer picking up transients that were moving in.
I was controlling that population at a certain %, and taking the same % every year.
Then 1080 went to Indiana.
What he did there, the numbers taken in the amount of time- and yes they ran hard and long- was truly amazing to me.
here is a guy that rolls into a territory where Andy was getting his 50-60 or whatever a year, thinking he was slaying them.....
and made that a 2 day catch.
I knew of 1080- years ago from Wiley many years ago- and know Wiley's opinion of him which was in a pretty much direct quote-
"1080 is one of the most knowledgeable coyote men out there, and if you listen you will learn. He CAN be a little...blunt at times'
so when the videos started appearing, I was more than interested, and not in the jokes.
I've pm'd with 1080 a time or two, and he started trying to get me to, almost, forget most of what I was doing- and try going another way.
and I decided why not- if I could even do half of what he was doing in IN, I'd be a happy man.
So the last 2 years, I went for broke, and changed my whole mindset from how long I stayed, (5-6 days blew me away- went against all I held dear) to where and how i set.
part of learning this was number of traps- instead of having 2 traps at every juncture, I wanted 2 traps in the spot.
and this year, the number of double again blew me away - fully 50-60 % of my coyotes were doubles, and many locations with 2 doubles in a week
so its pretty obvious one thing I'll be doing next year!
I've been asked why with this new system ,I didn;t catch 2-300 coyotes and that's easy too-
rather than concentrating a lot of traps at multiple locations, I was in effect putting all my traps in one basket- either the location paid off or it didn't.
I'm learning location all over again- not general location , but THAT micro location- and guys, it DOES exist.
I'm new at it, and the first 2 years were learning experiences- think of it like a football team that gets a 100% different offense and defense and keeps the same team- it takes a few seasons for it all to click-
I built last year on the year before, and the foundation is in place to expand all aspects next year.
Can't wait!
if this stuff was laid out there in a direct way, it wouldn't be taking so long to connect the dots for me, and anyone can do it but you have to want it and put in the work- much of it "mental work" reading, thinking, and yes arguing to try to put all the pieces together but you also need to be on the ground more.
gopher work helps, but it comes down to the more time you put in, the better you can use things like whats been presented in the studies (and those are just the tip if one starts googling coyote research). And I need to put more time in on the ground, which is one thing multiple years will do.
one of the hardest things to grasp, is that there are givens, many of which have been mentioned in this or other threads, that cannot be ignored.
Innate nature. That says it all.
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spring
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 35
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Post by spring on Mar 17, 2012 16:47:15 GMT -6
Great post and vids zagman!!!!!
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Post by 1080 on Mar 19, 2012 0:27:42 GMT -6
Ooooooo- K Enough of the cru luv-fest already Tman.I`m thinking I liked it better when we argued ALL the time "Blunt",, Wiley said that,talk about the pot calling the kettle Black. He still owes me money,so I see whats going on here Just Kidding TC,don`t get him all worked up. Talked the other day as a matter of fact,seems every time he calls he`s driving across the "High Desert" and I`m in a pasture somewhere. Well Tman,Hopefully 3s a Charm.. You put some pressure on yourself now , maybe you needed a little under the old keester after all.... I`m pulling for ya,,,, so "Git R Done" It`s a ways to go until your Season(God I hate that when referencing Coyotes),until your Fall lines begin .. When gophering,where coyotes are now can/will,be very different come fall...So think ahead.Tell you what,I`ll send you some fuse-ies, and you go gas a den for me in the next 60 days. Find a few,I have plenty.Better yet,try this ..... or this Keep the fire extinguisher handy !!
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Post by trappnman on Mar 19, 2012 7:46:20 GMT -6
When I find dens, I don't gas them.....I place extra gophers near by....grow up little ones with nice white bellies......... No season here- but I can't afford to trap them now......ah, if only I had a bounty! A couple of people have PMed me, asking why keep it all secret, and there is nothing secret going on.......... or rather there IS a big "secret" if you will, and that is the more knowledgeable you are on coyotes (and I certainly don't know it all or even most of all, hence these discussions) and the more you understand innate behaviors, the more success. that the micro location is far more important than macro location, in that where and how you set, determines how a coyote is going to respond to that set- We ALL have had a set, where tracks walked by within feet, and never stopped to even wink at the set as he went by- 100 yards down the road- tracks veer right into set and there he is. Luck? I used to think so. I've been reading studies for many years, and the more the merrier- so much has been revealed, by them. When a link is posted, I figure there is a reason it was, that within it, is a "clue" to our general goal (catching 100% of the coyotes you have aware of traps). So I read and re-read and take notes and I'm starting to SEE the patterns. The more I read, and the more I see how it applies to my locations vis a vis success or lack of, the more it sense it all makes. That just maybe it wasn't luck in the above scenario, but instead something that could have been predicted, once I put into play innate behaviors. To not read and think they don't pertain to actual on line trapping is to me missing the boat. Zags and the others that participated, thanks! It all adds to the completion of the puzzle, but if no one else is interested in studies on coyotes and what they say or don't say, then I'll save my time. think of it as coyotes 202- and no, I'm not the teacher, just an eager student- here is a study I'll repeat because its got a lot in it. I'd be interested in hearing what others got from it- or even if they got nothing at all. ojs.lib.byu.edu/ojs/index.php/wnan/article/viewFile/1235/1092You have to copy&paste or type in the link in your address bar
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 19, 2012 19:02:18 GMT -6
"1080 is one of the most knowledgeable coyote men out there, and if you listen you will learn. He CAN be a little...blunt at times"
A LITTLE blunt? lol
In truth I agree with Wiley on both points.
Steve, .....you say that " instead of having 2 traps at every juncture, I wanted 2 traps in the spot. and this year, the number of double again blew me away - fully 50-60 % of my coyotes were doubles, and many locations with 2 doubles in a week"
Question... what different about your locations now compared to then? What is "the spot" and how are you identifying them... can you pick them in advance?..in other words, when you make the sets do you know "this is the spot!"
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Post by trappnman on Mar 19, 2012 19:37:02 GMT -6
Chris- the biggest thing, is that I''ve been convinced that putting the sets in true stall out areas, areas that coyotes have guards down and are multiple use areas, that the sets get worked more often and harder with less circling, standbacks, etc.
So, since it helps put me in the proper mindset, I look for areas where I feel coyotes would be safe, and then check out that area or areas.
no, not all I pick are such, but the ones where I am spot on so to speak, I can see the results- one thing i'm learning, is not all areas with sign, scat are stall out areas. I had some locations where I couldn;t wait ot check, and they didn't disappoint me- i had others that still baffle me-
the post about the sand road and the bales, sums up a lot of what I've kearned
1080s post about denning is something i need to do more of- he wasn't serious about me gassing, but was about me knowing
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Post by jsevering on Mar 21, 2012 19:24:30 GMT -6
Interesting study… lol… reading it however ruined my cheech and chong vision of the stoned coyotes and the odor of thirty decaying cows blasting out from a hole… thanks! Would be nice if they plotted them on a topography map and related the prevailing wind direction a hair… not being from texas you can only guess.
Brings up some interesting questions, like why the southerly pile was hit more than the pile northwesterly 3 or 30 cows if the wind was out of the northwest… im thinking thirty would have way more birds on it also.
Sounds like they took a fair number of dogs with the chopper also that were around… the age classes of transients were interesting with mention of the older dogs that aren’t holding territory any more and even the alphas holding territory making runs to the pile if need be more or less…
To kinda get back on the urine portion of the original thread… you don’t think the urine or turds from some of those transients, or the younger helpers in some of the groups.… didn’t cue in others and the alphas that there was a meat factory around. I realize the carrion smell/ storm fronts or what ever, birds etc.. played a part also…
thinking on the coyotes that were northerly going south, pretty clear the northerly dogs hit piles A &B thinking also, some on that one resident in the dashed area that only hit the northerly pile and the four southerly ones that only appeared to go southerly would have been nice to have had a cardinal wind direction to relate with the distances traveled is all, im thinking the long range visual keys played a hair more in it than actual olfactory, but who knows .
cant help but think on urine remarking in reputed areas held that would be high intrusion points leading through and to the actual carrion piles, also thinking it would take more than two or an alpha pair to take care of a reputed area… (the helicopter totals in the adjacent area).
I understand what your trying to convey in your post steve, with the hay bales, etc.… but my thought would be that the hay bales are a secondary food source for rodents with a big somewhat natural visual (sign post) in that particular area your more or less describing…
got me thinking on visuals (a natural sign post) in part, regarding possible cache/scavenging areas some, also within range of the of the smaller draw piles and all the extra visuals, sounds that go with it, within the bigger or common stall out area described some… not for urine sake and not particularly, even something that would or may even be considered a post or backing… but a visual memory cue or feature, might be worth investigating… then after the sign post is posted (weber's law in part) maybe a urine set or two may even work in the gang setting....
the helicopter part of that study was interesting... jim
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