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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 7, 2012 19:57:21 GMT -6
Smells don't spread 360 all the time when you live in a windy envrioment I will play the wind all the time, Noaa can give you wind directions for multiple hours in a 24-48 period, again they aren't a 100% but enough and knowing where to set to take advanatge of the wind very important to me.
A coyotes nose is good enough with what I use and as close as I like to set the majority of the time that they will smell what I'm offering, I have little doubts in that.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 7, 2012 20:06:46 GMT -6
More natural visual attraction the family group on a rocky knob offering some concielment to look down into the sheep pasture; No need to add anything make good sets and use the wind: Travel lane to the left of the set , winds from the right a set in tall grass little visual sheep pver that large hill Another one fresh plowed field too much open ground sheep straight down the truck path in the grass over that hill will follow the yellow brick road offers more escape and cover. 2 sets nothing with eye popping visuals playing the wind and a milling location = 2 adult coyotes.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 7, 2012 20:43:00 GMT -6
yet you also feel that a grasshopper and beetles have some wonderous odor factor to them. Why not grind up some hoppers and forget the skunk essenace?
how do you get from "grasshoppers have an odor" to "have some wonderus odor"
your "logic" escapes me.
WE got on human scent as you FEEL the need to add alot of volume or it doesn't work as well or the fact that a visual adds more to it. So humans scent is nothing different than a lure odor correct? So the question is still unanswered how much human smell do we put off and why can a coyote smell that so much better than lure in your mind?
i can't discuss the studies with you, if you haven't read them.
you brought up human odor becasue I mentioned a study that says coyotes aren't responding to small odors unless within 2m of it?
ok
Sorry Tman you are lossing me fast with things
I can see thats so.............
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Post by Zagman on Mar 12, 2012 9:21:27 GMT -6
.....................Deep breath........................
OK, this should give this post some legs........
I guess I am one of those scent post guys being called out to respond, so here's my two cents.
I find this study, along with all the other ones posted, quite interesting.
The findings on the scent marking, while interesting for sure, I find very little application to most coyote trappers.
Why?
How many trappers are actually going around and ONLY putting in a scent post with no other set(s) nearby? Then, of that number, how many are using only bladder urine vs. commercial urine and/or a commercial gland lure?
And, again, how many are actually finding these natural scent posts in the first place, i.e., using a trap line dog to find them?
Further, how does a coyote react to one of these markings (if at all) when there's a coyote in a trap nearby or a non-target in one of the traps?
So, my point? The scenarios on the study cannot be replicated, and therefore, simply cannot apply to our coyote lines in general.
Tman keeps saying he wants to work with nature vs. against it. I contend that ANY set we make changes what's natural to a coyote and therefore, a coyote's reaction to our set will always be different than his reaction to a natural scent post.
This fall will be my 10th season of using trap line dogs. While their use by me has been poo-poo'ed by better men than me, I can't help but notice my success with them and their application to my line.
My system, if you will, DOES have me working WITH a coyote's nature while he works my sets, not against it. Bear with me......
It is largely accepted that many coyotes don't just bull their way into our offerings, but rather, circle, fidget, pace, etc.
Whether phobic or even neophobic, this behavior is most obvious in the snow.
With my dogs, I think, I take advantage of that behavior, and yes, even exploit it.
So, I pull into a location where I am planning on making my sets. Lets assume I am on location either near a dead pile on a farm, travel ways into that dump, intersections of multiple travel way and/or blockages, etc. I am on a general location that anyone of us would logically choose.
I cast my dogs out of the truck and watch them. They immediately put their noses to the ground, and probably 75% of the time, they find me some coyote turds and/or scent marking stations from coyotes. These scent marking stations are usually a large, obvious, dark green grass clumps. They are usually one of the more obvious features on the location.
My dogs, because they fight coyotes, act FAR different on a coyote scent marking than on a neighborhood telephone pole that the local dogs are marking.
For lack of a better word, they act "birdy". Then, when done marking, one or both dogs will usually do a kickback. They just don't do that with domestic dog markings......
I've seen them mark thousands of times.....and a blind man would note the difference in my dogs on these markings vs. those NOT made by coyotes....
Please note: I almost NEVER find them marking on a piece of wood or a rock....items I often see trappers trying to make into "scent posts".
The better grass tufts often get hit more than once by my dogs.....and if they roll on it, then we are really on to something.
So, now this grass tuft becomes my "anchor" set.
Playing the predominant wind, I then go upwind of my anchor set 20-30 feet or so and make my loud set(s).
These sets are both visually and olfactory-speaking "louder" than my "sleeper set" (grass tuft).
A big, large, gnarly dirthole with good stink in the bottom OR a T-bone with some good stink on it. Or both, if I set three or more sets (dictated by sign).
My grass tuft will only get urine on it, and often, I add nothing to it than what was already there and what my dogs supplemented.
My theory is this......if the coyote is working the sets with the wind, he may pass my sleeper set first on the way into the louder sets.
OR......if he is phobic about the other, louder sets AND he is pacing down wind of those sets, what is more natural for a nervous, phobic coyote to do than to MARK on a grass tuft that's already been hit by other coyotes, or even that specific coyote as well?
So, again, I think in this trapping application, I AM working with the coyote's nature and NOT against it.
When there is not snow, I can only speculate as to how and when a coyote reacted to a successful grass tuft set, did he circle the other sets OR did he just work the natural grass tuft on his way over to check out the louder sets?
Don't know....but in snow, I see that it is often caught while circling or pacing down wind of the louder sets.
How about a coyote getting caught in the loud dirt hole first? Again, when other coyotes come in and are attracted to the caught coyote, I think that natural grass tuft set in the right place exploits the new coyote's nature. Sure, they will often work any close-by set, but I think the grass tuft in close proximity to the trapped coyote is just such an obvious, natural thing for the circling coyote to hit.
On trap placement, my trap is on the down wind side of the clump, for lack of a better word.......and any urine I place there will be on the down wind, base of the grass tuft. I don't sprinkle or spray it all over, but rather, in a very concentrated spot. Even if the wind is wrong, I want to bring the nose, and then the feet, around to the trap side of the tuft, and feel a concentrated spot of urine helps in doing just that......
I have some videos that I will post showing this circling, marking, in the snow that are compelling and to some degree support my findings.
A lot of words to describe what I do, but this takes longer to explain than to do. This is not over complicating things or taking me any additional time.....
I spend less time finding my individual EXACT spots....once the dogs find my anchor the second or third spots are simple. And fast.
While I am grabbing my tools, the dogs are on the job.
I know some will say ANY dog will help on the line and find these spots. I cannot argue that......but my dogs, being coyote fighters, really attach some type of meaning to the grass tufts they find....hard to explain, but they ain't just lifting their legs. They are expressing dominance over the coyotes that marked there and that may die there.......at least in my opinion. Sounds silly, but its the only way I can explain it.......
So, again, back to the study. I really can see no real-life application to our trapping. Whether coyotes remark a natural station or not makes no difference. The stations I have them marking have traps on them and whatever meaning that grass tuft marking originally had IS NOT LONGER VALID.
Why? Because there's another set close by and/or a trapped coyote nearby. Game over on any previous meaning that tuft had regarding territory or whatever. And what about the human scent we left there?
And again, without dogs, trappers wont be setting up NATURAL markings anyhow......so at best, they are making imitation scent posts that have no meaning to the coyotes at all. Attraction? Yes. Meaning? No.
Again, all IMHO.
I will make a second post with the videos.
Now, let me have it! LOL Tear this all apart and tell me I am all wet!
Studies are not the end all, be all. It's a glimpse.....a snap shot. In my business, I can show you studies that say cell phones are bad for you, and studies that say they have no harmful effects.
Rather than reading a study and drawing conclusions, I am telling you real life, real world applications that I have found myself. My opinions are based on actual experience vs. simply reading a study and drawing conclusions thereof.
Take it for whatever, or how little, it is worth.
Zagman
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Post by Zagman on Mar 12, 2012 10:19:22 GMT -6
These are all videos, so click them. This location is a crop change intersecting with a road about 50 yards DOWNWIND and UPHILL from a dairy farm calf dump. I caught five coyotes here earlier in the year and seven or eight in January and February. I had traps on it longer than any other farm due to proximity to my home. My truck is in the cornfield. To the right of my truck, you can see the dead furrow crop change and the start of the hay field. Coyotes follow this crop change all the way out from the deep ravines to the south in the back of the picture. Been catching on this crop change for over a decade. In that video taken in the early morning, east is behind my truck to the left and west is to the right. The camera is facing south and the calf dump is behind my back. The snow was melting and a warm southern breeze was blowing vs. west/northwest. The trap are to the west of the crop change that the coyotes follow to the road. They are in the hay field and the other crop is corn. Above and beyond the sets being to the west to take advantage of prevailing wind, this eliminates super muddy coyotes for me as well. So, because of the unusual warm weather and south wind, the coyote that made all these tracks was pacing DOWNWIND of the sets. The coyote was in that 20-30 feet range of comfort, like the way I space my sleeper set and louder sets. He marked an obvious tuft. I am not sure if it had been marked before and I missed it OR if it was new. While there are tracks closer to the sets he did not work, they are still largely DOWNWIND of the traps. Even though he went close to the sets, the coyote was phobic about them, and while circling downwind, he MARKED and did TWO kickbacks...... So, I blended that trap in to the best of my ability in the snow. The south wind continued and all the snow melted. That first night, I caught this joker in the new, blended, grass tuft/turd set. Was it the same coyote that left the turds and kickbacks. Don't know. Either way, even if this is a different coyote, he did NOT bite on the other sets, but rather, the downwind sleeper set. Just one example, but I think it illustrates the behavior I used a million words to describe in the previous post. Zagman
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Post by musher on Mar 12, 2012 10:55:25 GMT -6
Even if I know squat about coyotes, I do recognize useful info.
Great post, Zags.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2012 10:58:34 GMT -6
thanks for replying Zags............
just to clarify, my original post and comments, were directed to the set I read about here and there, and was a staple of the old FFG type articles- using no lure, just a subtle blended trap with a urine applied, usually at a stick or block of wood.
We have all seen pictures of 'the stick" angled, with trap under the angle.
so- with that type of set (as per above), I personally feel its a poor OVERALL set
but I do set similar flat sets as you use as per tuffs of grass, but not as a blended (ie grass, etc) mafia type set but as a blended walk-through in bare areas. but I usually do add lure.
So I am curious as to why you don't add lure more often than you do? Surely gland lure wouldn't change the dynamics, and might make it more productive?
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By working with the nature of the coyote, I applied it in more widespread terms than just remarking. And that's the singular thing 1080 has commented on, and that is that if you understand the nature of coyotes, and understand who, when and where they do something, and understand that they will work a set 100% different if "here" rather than "there"- its all downhill from there.
Does human scent change things? Not in my area. I'm convinced human scent means squat if more than a half hour old or even less. I'm constantly setting traps where there is constant human activity throughout the day- I caught coyotes in peoples GARDENS this past year, and more than a few right behind the barn or buildings. And I have hundreds of gophers eaten from my traps every year, where I'm sweating, and literally plastering the ground with human scent. I've come to the point where in small farm country with constant human interactions (and relatively safe human interactions) I no longer even think about it.
Whats more natural to a coyote in farm country, than holes in the ground? Gophers, woodchucks, badger, rabbits, ground squirrels, even small critters like mice live in holes and are constantly digging holes in the ground, and many of those offer food sources to a coyote.
So a hole is as natural as you can get.
No one loved flat sets more than I did- and I still like them, but the more I refined my hole sets, the less flat sets came into play.
I'm so convinced that the visual of the set, plays far more important a role than I thought (and keys as to why are in the studies) and that with the proper location, with the proper presentation, and with the right makeup of a set- very few coyotes aren't going to work them. Let me state that's my goal- and I'm not there yet.
I had 2 of my better years last 2 years, all with 30-50% less traps out at any one time. Trying to find "the Spot" where everything comes together- the set & the location. and I'm "light years" behind the curve in this regard.
Analyzing the data on last years lines, I cannot WAIT for the new season to begin.
I know many who are reading these threads aren't reading the links, and you are missing out if you aren't. All those studies on spatial territory are key. and the studies that go in depth on innate behavior vis a vis who and where they are, gives us clues to what we need to do.
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Going back to natural marking sites.
I agree a dog shows you them. My beagle, being a hound, is always "hunting" and he doesn't mark indiscriminately when hes in that mode. He will do the same thing you describe your dogs doing at a location, and regularly will leave scat on coyote scat, or pee on places where its obvious coyotes are doing the same. i see this a lot when hes with me water trapping- pee all around a tuff or clump, and hes on it. And hes the kickback king, last fall so dry we would laugh- there was Buddy in a cloud of dust.
But I can do the same. If its being marked enough to be a focal point, there is plenty of evidence. I agree, sign is hard to see with our grassy type terrains, but it is there. My point being, if you didn't have the dogs, I'm thinking you would still find those very same spots.
I can't do this, but I'm betting there are guys out there, that could point out those spots quicker than a dog- just by constant experience in doing so.
But my thought is this- for me, I'd rather leave that marking spot alone, and catch the coyotes near it- thus leaving the attraction point, there.
a question- When you remake the set- do you then add lure?
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Post by Zagman on Mar 12, 2012 11:33:16 GMT -6
Steve, you say human scent doesn't matter after 1/2 hour.
I don't really disagree. But then you say you use urine liberally as a fear eliminator/confidence builder. Fearful of what? Or lacking confidence in what?
If I use lure on my grass tufts, it is gland lure.
Remember that old post from back in the day "Gland lure ain't natural"? I just dont thinks its necessary.....not skimping on lure either.
I figure if they are circling the LOUD sets, then a very natural offering of just urine makes sense to me.
Almost like TC39, I feel my grass tufts are so close to being on location AND its probably something they know is already there, so lure is largely not needed. Their pee, the dog's pee, and then my addition of more pee is plenty.....IF on location.
I disagree with you on finding these tufts quickly without dogs. Often, there are several obvious tufts at a location......and my dogs do it so quickly, no human could ever do it that fast ALL DAY EVERYDAY.
Can you find one or two and bend down and smell them....sure. But over hundreds of locations in a season, the dog is just "spot on" LOL
But, if you are just "forcing in" a grass tuft that is NOT already being marked, you are changing the whole equation NOT utilizing a pre-existing condition.
I like when my dogs find turds naked to the eye......hidden down in the grass. Not all turds are placed in the middle of the road where other coyotes will see them.....I will see Boone or Rusty stop, bury their noses down in the grass. I go over there, separate the grass, and there's the nice black coyote turds.
As I have said before, trappers generally set on obvious sign when trapping rats, beaver, coon, etc.
Canine trappers, largely, are location setters. You pick a spot, generally, based on experience. You set it whether you find sign or not. In sod country, you will be hard pressed to find tracks or turds, let alone naturally occurring grass tufts.
I think I am pretty good at picking locations....and the dogs simply confirm that I am right.
MZ
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2012 12:00:53 GMT -6
But then you say you use urine liberally as a fear eliminator/confidence builder. Fearful of what? Or lacking confidence in what?
I think a good "coyote" smell adds to the naturalness of the set- that taking into account a natural neophobic attitude of things. Studies show coyotes urinated often on food or interest points. What could be more natural, than lots of urine smell at a location? Not because of fear per se, but more as being something familiar, which helps, IMO, to dissipate some of that neophobic behavior.
Each to their own on that.
I don't trap sod country. Can't remember a time I've set in sod.
I trap farms. As such, everything changes year after year, and even in established hay fields, their are plenty of open spaces to determine whats going on. I see constant coyote sign, scat, kickbacks, marking in hay fields all summer.
Even easier, in my country, in the fall when things stop growing.
I don't think the spot comes down to which tuff of grass- but rather to where this behavior is occurring at multiple spots.
But, if you are just "forcing in" a grass tuft that is NOT already being marked, you are changing the whole equation NOT utilizing a pre-existing condition.
Zags- that was my original observation- that MAKING a remake station, was a low % set.
Let me ask you this- why do you add urine to an established location? Wouldn't the more natural thing to just blend the set in, adding nothing?
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Post by Zagman on Mar 12, 2012 12:32:16 GMT -6
When I say SOD COUNTRY.....I mean the same as you. Lots of hay fields where, without snow, it can be hard to see the circling/pacing a coyote may do like you would in snow or maybe even sand.
I said above, that a lot of time I don't add anything else to the tufts the dogs find. But, I can't help but have the dog pee on the tuft.......cant control that, and that's exactly what I want anyhow.
The use of additional urine and/or gland lure is more to "guide" the animal over my trap....thus the very precise application at a certain spot.
The dogs, and I assume coyotes, pee all over the grass tuft.....so, using the predominant wind, I try to guide the animal over my trap with lure/urine application. If the wind is wrong, I hope their nose will guide the body and feet around to the trap side of the tuft.
As info......though I don't know the exact number, I bet 90% of my rear foot caught coyotes come from grass tufts.....male OR female.
Regarding all the sign you see in hay fields......so why do we only notice all the tracks and circling when there is snow? Certainly it is happening without snow. That was the whole reason I originally brought up sod/hay fields.
I can tell you why I dont notice the circling in a no snow situation.....I pull in, see nothings in any of the traps and they are all in good working order, and I fly out of there. Never even get out of the truck.
With snow, you pull in, and OFTEN, follow tracks to your set. You see nothing in the traps, but can't help but notice all of the tracks, like in my videos.
If that scenario had played out with no snow, I wouldn't have noticed a thing.
Multiple markings at the same spot? Don't really ever see that........multiple turds? Yes, several grass tufts within normal setting distance of each other. Nope. One and done.
MZ
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2012 13:16:45 GMT -6
I didn't mean a pile of scat, rather the general location had multiple places with scat.
Actually, in snow, I don't see that circling action you are talking about when they pee- I don't trap a lot of snow, but I see a lot of coyote sign walking my waterlines. and one thing I have noticed, is that where I see them peeing, its pretty much come in, pee, and move on.
I do see the circular or sideways action at sets that don't connect in snow.
am I correct in thinking that you see this circling action on tuffs that are untouched by you? or just where you have sets?
I have to disagree on finding of sign in hay fields and the like- I see constant, constant sign on those fields from now til late summer and that includes kickbacks, marking (often gopher stakes or on the mounds with stakes on them) where they roll and play, etc. In fact a picked hayfield is almost like snow in that there is more dirt, than grass. fyi, I love making flat sets in such settings.
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Post by Zagman on Mar 12, 2012 14:56:54 GMT -6
The whole point of my posting is to take advantage of a coyote's (many? most? Certainly not all...) propensity to circle/pace around sets.
The circling I mention is only in reference to our traps .....and thus the very reason they do it.
I am not suggesting nor have I witnessed in the snow where a coyote circles a natural grass tuft with no traps there or in the vicinity.
The whole idea is to take advantage of that inherent circling, and I therefore believe and seen it hundreds and hundreds of times, that a natural grass tuft that they have already marked is pretty good way to nail these coyotes.
And, again, I think the videos demonstrate it better than I can explain it.
MZ
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Post by trappnman on Mar 12, 2012 17:21:34 GMT -6
ok, I get what you are saying. And agree on the working of sets to a degree. I've of course seen what you see as well, but I also, and know you have as well, seen many times where a coyotes tracks came right to the set and there he is. I'm enjoying this discussion, and am not trying to change your methods at all, or downplay your observations, simply presenting my viewpoints circling the set, shows distrust and caution I think you would agree. So if a set is in a location where hes naturally cautious, wouldn't the behavior increase? And if at a location where his guards are down, wouldn't the behavior decrease? the rest of you can play too.............
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slik1
Demoman...
Posts: 188
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Post by slik1 on Mar 12, 2012 20:02:28 GMT -6
very nice post here. Lots of good stuff for UNDERSTANDING behavior. Thanks for sharing
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slik1
Demoman...
Posts: 188
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Post by slik1 on Mar 12, 2012 20:14:40 GMT -6
I ate some humble pie 2 winters ago, tracks all over right to set, some slowing down, some not. Got a few, many went by with out ever even changing course, not fun digging beds in frozen ground, safety glasses a must. Learned a bunch from the snow. again,, not much urine marking, but some. DOn't know if my stuff was loud enough that time of yr, smelled LOUD TO Me, brushed out vehicle tracks, etc. Very impressive circling around traps, ones that did commit, high pad catches, not many back foot catches, but would have taken those if I had em.Trapped mostly high transmission lines, had the most action there, not much action on pastures, did get a few on crop changes, not many distinct features on the flats. Learned more on location. It was alot of work, but fun as well.
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Post by jsevering on Mar 13, 2012 6:45:04 GMT -6
see that pattern here often in the snow when you come back later at some old catch circles, pulled or no trap, circle snowed over... usually less than three to four inches worth (no visuals to cue off, except maybe a memory in the olfactory bulb)
have seen where they even scratch down to and remark a turd at the edge if the snow isn't to deep... usually with pee...
interesting how some will still mill around... but the spot has changed in part, like mark shown in his video...
social structure, transients, density, imagine it all has some to do with it.. what about the new visuals... turd, kickback, the semi arc to the straight line of travel... things we as trappers seem to notice more with the advent of snow cover...
i understand loud and different types of loud to include a loud wispier... what i don't understand is constant screaming in an olfactory sense especially dealing with time and certain social structures... jim
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Post by trappnman on Mar 13, 2012 8:11:09 GMT -6
One point I made, that might have been overloooked, was that in summer in the hay fields, I see pee all the time on mounds and by stakes. so how many pee locations are there with family groups running all around? Not all pee spots, are scent marking spots, they are just a spot where they peed. Dogs tell you where they peed, but how many such spots are there at a stall out location? A lot. Are all ones that should be set up? What deferenciates between a spot that should be set up due to where it is and the overall micro location of that spot, vs any of the other spots? So for me, If I want to put in a less obvious set, a walkthrough flat set does the job and I can put it where it needs to be. But again, thats just my thoughts, each to their own. there are two things I often wonder about when trapping coyotes- how many coyotes are aware of my sets & how many that are aware, am I taking? What I've been told, and I'm not disputing the numbers, that at a good guesstimate based on my terirroty, methods- I'm maybe geting 30-40% of the coyotes avaialbe to me (in that entire area) to become aware of a set ( setting where he WILL be)and maybe 60-70% of the ones that are aware of my sets. Those are sobering figures. Part of it is my territory- lots and lots of coulees and ravines, so one is forced to trap the ridges and bottoms so it becomes hard to physically BE on all of them, but if I am missing 30-40% of the coyotes that are aware of my sets, then I need to change that. those 30-40 % that either put a track on the pattern, or don't even bother to come by are mine for the taking. now I'm not going to get 100%, but no one is. But even if I can cut that in half, and take 15-20% of those- that's quite a bump in numbers with the same work involved. So in reality- that's the raison d'etre for these coyote polls and threads. To by better understanding coyote behavior, and whats innate in them (behaviors that are common to "all", behaviors that are part of their genetic makeup and nature, in other words things that they just DO, by the very nature of them being coyotes) we become more proficient in their harvest. To paraphrase and sum up what a lot of these studies show, is that much activity takes place in certain areas, by multiple coyote groups. They also tell us certain behaviors occur vis a vis overlapping territories. and we learned about neophobic and neophilia behaviors. 1080 posted once observe the similarities in the studies, not the disagreements. what those show, is the innate behavior, or the givens. so going back to my trying to take an additional number of aware but untrapped coyotes, I had to understand 2 things: -that in certain places, they were far easier to catch than in other places -the features of a set, dictates on how it appeals to the majority of coyotes. So the solution to my problem was obvious- I needed to be at THE SPOT and I needed to have my sets appeal to ALL coyotes, not just ones with certain temperaments (the study on age class & neophobic behavior was interesting) I understand THE SPOT in blind set mink trapping. Because of experience, I can look at a location, and "know" where THE SPOT is- where most every mink that comes by, will go. I'll set up a couple of the lesser spots, knowing I'll catch mink there as well, but THE SPOT is going to take the bulk, and if I eliminated all but THE SPOT, my total mink catch over time, would likely be the same- whereas setting just a lessor spot or two, while giving me mink, will leave a lot of mink there. And I'm not saying the above to brag, its just what 5 decades of doing, tells one. Now- mink are not a social animal in any way during season, although pups might loosely hang close to each other- and by knowing the innate behavior of mink, I can predict the spot. I'll freely admit, before 1080, I never consider coyotes as having "THE SPOT". Of course I was aware of dead piles, other attraction points, etc but I figured I'd get them on travel routes- and I still do take them on travel routes. During the years, I had a few of THE SPOTS" knew they were such, but didn't know why. I could figure out common features, and those that remember my old articles and posts will remember I called those areas "party spots" or "neutral zones" and i tried to duplicate locations that had those features. And that did produce a couple more "THE SPOTS", but it was all based on similar physical characteristics, and no other criteria. What those spots were of course, were stall out spots. And we know from the studies posted over the past months, that stall out spots occur in areas where coyotes feel safe- I call them "Safety Zones" because it aids me in determining locations- my first question asked is would a coyote feel safe here, would his guards be down, would he be in a more relaxed mood? and if that's the case, and I have my own criteria for determining that, which I'll keep to myself for now as its an ongoing developing process, and then look for signs of stall out points. because not all areas that have scat or tracks indicates that the area is a stall out point. Here's a good case example. A farm is hay and mixed crops, with a big woods bordering it. Running between the farms is a sand road. This road is covered with tracks and here and there scat. I trapped it once about 5 years ago, setting along the sand road, and caught 1 pup. 2 years ago, I moved to a crossroads, with tracks coming and going, and caught zero there. This past year, I moved 75 yards away, to what I thought was a stall out area, and was "safe"- I caught 4 or 5 here in 6 checks- here are 2- all in same set, all tight against a round bale- Now, I had in the other 2 years caught coyotes o neighboring farms, and did as well this year- but by finding, or at least being very close to THE SPOT- the results improved dramatically. He res another location- a good spot where I see sign, and in the other 2 years trapping it got 2-4 there, so considered it a worthy location. This year, I added a couple coyote carcasses- and took 7 in 5 checks- a singleton, a singleton, a singleton, a double and a double video- So I took a "good" spot, and made it better by adding something to make them mill around a little more than past years. So the first part of my "Road to Improvement" is simply understand more, learning not only to read sign more, but to understand what that sign is showing me. and I'm also convinced that certain things at a set- big big patterns, substantial backings, approaches, etc have as much to do with coyotes i general working a set, than whats i in the hole. now add something irresistible in that hole, and the odds increase. but something good in the hole, does not compensate for bad mechanics- the notion that any set will take a coyote is certainly true, but I don't believe its true that any set will take MOST of the coyotes. I believe that the construction of a set (and where it is), will determine how the coyotes behavior is when he becomes aware of the set, and that by having both criteria in place, that "bad" things like stand backs, working the hole from the side or behind, circling or even just walking by decrease significantly. I believe that some sets (and too many of mine!!!) take pups, the odd coyote while a good portion just won't work the set, and other sets are like they have magnets on them and coyotes are iron. and it stands to reason that if some sets are magnets, then to deduce that that set is seen and worked differently then the "other" sets, isn't too far a reach.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 13, 2012 8:26:18 GMT -6
what i don't understand is constant screaming in an olfactory sense especially dealing with time and certain social structures..
What does 5 drops of lure give you, that using a "good pour" won't do?
You either are of the belief that subtle is better than loud, or the opposite is true. I'm not going to try to change your mind, but the guys that pound coyotes, take it as a given to use goodly amounts of lure and often more than one.
I'm coming close to 2000 lifetime coyotes, over 25 years, but I personally know people that take that many in 2-3 years. When they speak, I listen.
My own observations show me that loud odors don't deter the vast % of coyotes- that dead pig piles and rotting carcasses (and the more carcasses, the louder and longer the stink, and the more coyotes according to the studies) are huge attraction points. And I've shown to my own satisfaction, that lots of lure and a couple of types of lure, far outproduces those couple of drops.
I personally believe that a coyotes behavior, is influenced BY the amount of lure- and that his actions with a "gold mine" of scents, is better for me, than those few drops that might pique his interest, but nothing more (circling, standbacks, etc- where he likes it, but nothing to get excited about).
since this was misunderstood, and I can see why, I'll change it-
Many people fox trap coyotes, using small amounts of lure and patterns, and are not setting for coyotes taking into acocunt their behavior patterns as they differ from fox. To me, that's a given. I understand you disagree and that's fine- but I don't understand WHY?
why do you feel loud (and more than loud lets say large amounts) of lures, are reducing your catch?
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Post by jsevering on Mar 13, 2012 9:19:53 GMT -6
You fox trap with small amounts of lure and patterns, not coyote trap. To me, that's a given. I understand you disagree and that's fine- but I don't understand WHY? why do you feel loud (and more than loud lets say large amounts) of lures, are reducing your catch? ................................................................................................................. come on steve.... re- read my post from the beginning, including the study on lure, i posted...... they have all been pretty much the same...." i fox trap and to you thats a given"... guess i don't have much to contribute, so why explain, i'll just listen ... jim
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Post by trappnman on Mar 13, 2012 10:32:53 GMT -6
Jim, my comment was generic in nature, and not directed at you. It instead evolved around the general discussion, and other current and past discussions around the web. I can see why you took it personally, but that was not the intent. I say it often and say it at all my demos- too many people fox trap coyotes and the given- was PEOPLE cannot fox trap coyotes if they want the maximum number of coyotes on that line. Fox are not, as some think, just bigger foxes. How many times have you read "I make the same set for fox, I just set my trap back 3 more inches and over to the side 2? EVERYTHING is different. my point was this- since you made the comment what i don't understand is constant screaming in an olfactory sense especially dealing with time and certain social structures..
I addressed your question of "constant screaming" and asked WHY you felt large amounts of lures and loud odors, were detrimental to your catch stated why I felt loud and good amounts were important, so asked you why you felt subtle was the way to go. in other words, why would you ever in fur trapping, NOT use goodly amounts of lure at sets? Is that not a fair question? --------------------------- I don't know it all- as is clearly pointed out in my posts but I DO know where I need to improve, and to do that, I'll take givens as explained by those with far greater knowledge than I have. why would I not? Why would I argue with trappers that takes more coyotes in a day, then I do in a week? Why not use their experience, to augment mine? but damn, as someone told me "you got to be dragged there kicking and screaming don't you"? and that's true. I was doing OK doing things my way, and was catching coyotes every day and getting respectable catches, and thought I was pretty knowledgeable about coyotes and coyote trapping. But....I was stagnating in that 80-100 coyotes a year bracket. I have changed my line management 100% over the past 2 years, and changed my locations/setups by a good token as well. I wanted to do this 3 years ago- but didn't have the nerve. Decided in spring of 2010 to "just do it!" - to have faith and to put in the ground work needed. Remember- my typical lines I kept out for 2 weeks and longer- the past 2 years all locations were 5-6 checks and gone. To go in that short a time, made me very nervous. but what happened, was I had 2 back to back years that were my best in over a decade, all running less traps, and spending no more total time on check days. And I'll definitely thank 1080 for kicking me in the ass (his "you are getting old better get it done!" was mean, but illustrated the point) and to get me to understand, that to catch more coyotes in less time, I HAD to work with the coyotes nature, and not ignore it and to do that- I had to quit doing things, that were proven in studies and by trappers over decades, to be.........well, just wrong. some we know ourselves if we have any experience such as I still hear about needing a backing a coyote can see over, which is not only silly, but again...............wrong. Or needing kneeling cloths, or 2 sets of tools. I believed much of that- but my own experience showed me that they were not true, that someone could give an opinion such as "you won't catch coyotes at tall backings " and I knew, that yes it was an opinion, but it was wrong none the less and that the opposite could be taken as a given- something thought about, decided, put away. I had an Eureka moment as Mr Rodgers told me- and bear with me for repeating it, but innate behaviors are the key to maximum success. If I can get a set at a location where: a coyote spends a lot of time, multiple coyotes spend a lot of time, they are in a different mindset mode than other areas and then make that set (based on micro location, approach location, backing, other terrain features & something he really wants to get into at the hole- my success is ensured. I'm part way there- but I'm done wasting my time on fighting windmills (givens) and instead improve what I know NEEDS to be improved. As in everything, too many variables tells you little. To improve, givens are an orderly, and positive step.
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