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Post by trappnman on Feb 20, 2012 8:10:56 GMT -6
a while back, 1080 posted a link to a study on coyote peeing habits.
It covered WHERE/HOW/WHO did what
anyone else but me read it?
if so- did one thing jump out at you as a conclusion?
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slik1
Demoman...
Posts: 188
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Post by slik1 on Feb 20, 2012 9:39:34 GMT -6
Do you still have the link? thanks, greg
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Post by trappnman on Feb 20, 2012 9:40:20 GMT -6
1080 posted it, so not my link-
1080?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 20, 2012 10:19:14 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Feb 20, 2012 10:24:15 GMT -6
1080 pmd me and said he would do so tonight when he got home, but TC beat him to it-
thats the one-
I read it, thought about it, and came up with one thought that was interesting to say the least vis vis trapping techniques............
but I don't want to be first..........LOL
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Post by trappnman on Feb 20, 2012 20:04:10 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Feb 21, 2012 8:51:48 GMT -6
the last link typed in didn't come up with anything for me.
What I was hoping to get at, from reading the first study, was that if you believe the study, then a traditional scent post is about the worst set one could make, to take "any coyote"
and to point that out- my question would be- WHERE do you place a trap, in relation to a scent post? and why?
And who is remarking pee areas?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 21, 2012 11:10:03 GMT -6
I think the location of a scent post is key and can catch many coyotes if put on the right location. Just because you have the "post" doesn't mean it is the only place to put a trap in that location.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 21, 2012 11:41:56 GMT -6
I ask you this TC- where would you place the trap vis a vis the urine location?
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Post by trappnman on Feb 21, 2012 12:09:24 GMT -6
for you coyote guys that like reading and thinking about this stuff, time to jump in. if not, might as well take it to PM...... Ok- got the link to work that time 1080- yes indeed, a good study.............but reading that stuff brings up so many more questions- availability of prey in surrounding areas, other carcass dumps in the area, similarity of terrain, etc. Even the % of transient coyotes in the over all population vs breeders. One could guess, that options for food were at least somewhat limited - based on the reaction to resident coyotes leaving home ranges for carrion dumps- which then of course mentions a conflicting study...... for those that do like this stuff, and any serious coyote trapper should, if you copy the noted study aka Camenzind 1978 into google, it gives you that study, plus many more TC, wouldn't trap placement, be directly linked to WHO? which means one needs to start looking at the credits- thnaks 1080 for getting me back to seeking out and reading these studies. Did a fair amount of it 6-8 years ago, but got out of the habit. had a few talks with a guy that eggs me on, so lots more of it is making sense than 8 years ago. baby steps.................
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Post by trappnman on Feb 21, 2012 12:44:22 GMT -6
and of interest was the number of visits at <3 cows, vs 30>
look at the resident vs transient visit ratio numbers............
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tzone
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 10
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Post by tzone on Feb 21, 2012 13:14:16 GMT -6
I read the scent marking study and the thing that jumped at me was the prominence of marking jumps toward the breeding season. Makes sense but I guess I didnt comprehend that the females would have the same jump. Looking over my trap positioning I know that I need to set up my posts vastly different from dirt holes.
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Post by seldom on Feb 21, 2012 13:52:41 GMT -6
the last link typed in didn't come up with anything for me. What I was hoping to get at, from reading the first study, was that if you believe the study, then a traditional scent post is about the worst set one could make, to take "any coyote" and to point that out- my question would be- WHERE do you place a trap, in relation to a scent post? and why? And who is remarking pee areas? I'd say that when you trap(fall) a piss post, according to the study would indeed be a low percentage set. If you used it later, say in January, you've got "squatter" and "leg-hikers" in determining trap position. The other thing I forgot when I read it the 1st time and was right at the end of the publication, that double marking/scratching may serve as subtle repellents eliciting avoidance by potential intruders. One other thing was the mention of conflicting studies pretaining to the implication of coyote pissing on their food cache or an empty one.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 21, 2012 15:05:32 GMT -6
I noticed the same seldom- and also that who double marks- meaning pups, transients, etc don't remark scent posts (generally).
and I'm not saying a scent post doesn't have its place- but after reading the study my first thoguht was wOW- if one is relying on scent posts as a go to set, hes missing a lot of coyotes that aren;t going to work it- and then a signifcant number of those that do- are either squatters, full lift or semi lift- all indicating (watch your dog) different positions from the "post" so even then, trap placemnt would be arbitrary.
I've never done well with them, but figured that was just me.
but reading this-
and one thing I have learned, esp past 2 years, is that the trick is 2 fold- getting your sets in front of more coyotes and #2, as 1080 preaches getting the highest % of those that DO become aware of the sets to committ.
I can see, based on this study and another in the newly posted links by 1080 and now in my thread above, that WHERE in a coyotes territory a scent post is, makes all the difference in the world in if its re-marked, that based on a coyotes nature, its use, as a general set is limited.
take the time to type in the last link 1080 posted-
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Post by seldom on Feb 21, 2012 15:47:13 GMT -6
I noticed the same seldom- and also that who double marks- meaning pups, transients, etc don't remark scent posts (generally). and I'm not saying a scent post doesn't have its place- but after reading the study my first thoguht was wOW- if one is relying on scent posts as a go to set, hes missing a lot of coyotes that aren;t going to work it- and then a signifcant number of those that do- are either squatters, full lift or semi lift- all indicating (watch your dog) different positions from the "post" so even then, trap placemnt would be arbitrary. I've never done well with them, but figured that was just me. but reading this- and one thing I have learned, esp past 2 years, is that the trick is 2 fold- getting your sets in front of more coyotes and #2, as 1080 preaches getting the highest % of those that DO become aware of the sets to committ.I can see, based on this study and another in the newly posted links by 1080 and now in my thread above, that WHERE in a coyotes territory a scent post is, makes all the difference in the world in if its re-marked, that based on a coyotes nature, its use, as a general set is limited. take the time to type in the last link 1080 posted- Well I felt the same way and just plain quit trying to use that set figuring it was me having the problem. What I have done over the years is sort of along the line of 1080's thinking is why I used snares until they became useless by MI Regs and went basically to deep snow trail sets with footholds. In my own way I'm using the principle of putting the trap exactly where the coyote is but not trying to use or cause a reaction. Though it doesn't depend on the awareness of the coyote to commit to my set as 1080 speaks of, rather it's using their repetitive nature in place of committal. Works very well but I'm always looking for better!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 21, 2012 22:24:49 GMT -6
Sorry was gone for awhile.
One good trapper made the observation along time ago a coyote has to get within 6-8" of a odor to really break it down.
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Post by seldom on Feb 22, 2012 7:29:54 GMT -6
and of interest was the number of visits at <3 cows, vs 30> look at the resident vs transient visit ratio numbers............ Yes, even though I don't have carcass dumps, those two finding are very interesting!
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Post by trappnman on Feb 22, 2012 7:53:02 GMT -6
TC-are you saying that a coyote has to be within 6-8" of a lure, to determine the breakdown of that lure into individual ingredients?
I'd like to hear more on that theory, but on the face of it, I'd have to disagree for a couple of reasons.
#1- 6-8" is so arbitrary, and takes into account no outside factors, which ARE the most important aspects of lure "getting out there" and that's temp, wind, humidity, etc.
obviously a damp, warm night with a slight variable breeze, is going to get a lure out there , with essences intact, for far greater distances than having his nose at the hole.
and on a sub zero dry night with a 30 mile an hour wind, hes going to have to be much closer.
So I won't take 6-8 literally, but will take the point, I think, you are trying to make in that a coyote needs to be "close" to breakdown a lure.
my thoughts again disagree, first of all, I don't think he needs to be close at all to "breakdown" the different ingredients, he just needs a good amount passing by his nose- whether that's 6' or 100 yards
but more importantly, I don;t think a coyote, or any animal, is going to break down the odors as such, anymore than when we smell a fresh baked donut we think- ah, lard, sugar, salt, etc-
its the combo of smells that gives the set a smorgasbord effect, and as he smells it, its either going to attract, or repel in toto.
but if you are correct on both point-s one he needs to differentiate and two he needs to be close- then isn't that the perfect argument to use more than 3-4 drops of lure per set?
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Post by jsevering on Feb 22, 2012 8:14:14 GMT -6
i dont know steve you read that study then parts of others say how they move into the center of their area when they encounter another's mark and all this and that it relays to them ... what im kinda getting out of it and could be way off base is... they, the scent marks get investigated by others...
i still like and kinda get out of it, the way bob wendt described it a while back... "urine is the closest thing to the written word a coyote has"... im thinking they all may read, but some do more of the serious writing.
might be a reason why winter meat feed urine is thought of so highly... who knows... didn't o,gorman in one of his books about urine collection write how adult animals was a must.... without getting into all that much...
in one study kinda found the beta dog response interesting in regards to breeding season and marking... seems they marked less... cue's from the alphas marks?
anyhow a somewhat different thought on it some... jim
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Post by trappnman on Feb 22, 2012 8:34:28 GMT -6
Glad to see a few more jumping in!
Guess what intriqued me Jim, is that both studies indicated that only certain animals within a group, remark scent posts. And that pups, among others, seldom do. and that, as you pointed out, where in their territory do they remark?
In reading the studies, the above jumped out at me, including the observation that transient coyotes, rarely remarked scent areas. and that makes sense- if they have no territory to defend, no resson to leave scent markers.
so already, you eliminate a large portion of your available coyotes insofar as their reaction (remarking which has to be the goal in scent posts) to scent pot type sets- but then you got another factor coming into play-
there are many types of respsone, to those that DO remark others scent posts. for example a full leg lift (I think the reaction I imagined going on when I used scent posts a bit), a half hearted leg lift, and squatting (both males and females).
so, all three are quite different- observe your dog, he also uses all three methods- and all three, would have, at least in my mind, different locations for the trap in attempting to nail that coyote.
so when you add it all up- the natural tendency to have a majority of the population (pups, transients, non breeders) not remark scent posts, and add in the tendencies concerning where the scent post marks are in relation to territory (core/fringe), plus the "kicker" of urination methods.......
it was like stacking the deck against consistent use of remarking stations as a go to set.
At least for me.
Your second point, is that I agree urine is important at a set- but if coyotes have the noses we think they do, there is no way in the world they don't know that stale collection from multiple male/female coyotes isn't just that- its urine, and thus attractive, but it doesn't tell them anything.
but it does reinforce my belief that urine should be used liberally, that its a suspicion remover, not a marking point
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