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Post by mickm on Jul 8, 2010 19:37:03 GMT -6
50/50
Kinda strange.
I never liked springs simply because I use short chains and when I did use longer chains, I hated bedding the springs.
I have also had very little trouble holding critters without springs, and really thats all I care about.
Sooooo another thing that comes down to personal preference and situation, now there is a shocker.
I did learn that Arizona requires shock springs, but doesn't allow extended checks. I did learn something.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 8, 2010 19:40:23 GMT -6
Beav you had me until the ruler thing!!!! That is the reason you add the needed power to those wide flat jaws!!!! Then you can have the lung and that foot is going no where. PLus your offsetting the added power over more surface area as well, so it makes for better holds and better looking paws, than a thin jawed over powered trap.
Does it cause more toe catches? Not if your using pan tension it sure don't. Also having a good jaw spread helps in a small way too. But when you do they do a much better job holding them than a thin jawed trap.
I look at all coyotes caught really close and have for years what I notied with factory 2 coil thin jaw traps was side mounted chain and using 12-18" had shown alot more coyotes with their foot to one side of the trap, I don;t see that near as much with sterlings and bridgers that are modified. A thicker jaw has less flex to it as well.
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Post by 17HMR on Jul 9, 2010 7:57:30 GMT -6
If you are finding all your feet dead center in a trap that is center swiveled you are getting movement of the foot, all coyotes are not caught dead center every time.
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Post by k9 on Jul 9, 2010 9:24:17 GMT -6
One guy who has paid attention to foot damage is Bob as it has meant the difference between a hundred dollar bill and a ten dollar bill to him.
I do not use shock springs but I do like the looks of those made by JC Conners, or any like them. Very heavy duty. I would only consider shock springs important to me on an extended check, and with Iowa's 24 hour check I feel they would have little value.
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Post by garman on Jul 9, 2010 9:25:23 GMT -6
I like them run them on about all my yote traps and someday I will have them on all my yote traps. I agree with tc on most what he is saying, although I am sure many of you have caught more yotes than I have. I believe they work, studies showed they have, BUT I am sure alot will argue the studies. Heck to each is own, I also believe in alot of swivels, they are cheap. So good luck guys and keep on a rolling.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 9:46:45 GMT -6
what studies are you referring too? why would one need a shock spring on a short chain, any at all? and why on an extended ck if not on a 24? by the end of day 1 that coyote is too pooped to pip. what good would it do? k9, I have records on % damage ( as you said, loss of 100$) on over 20,000 head. RECORDS KEPT BY A GRADUATE DVM WITH A SPECIALTY IN WILDLIFE AND SPECIFICALLY TRAPPING. I contend there is no study any where anytime nor group of studies anywhere anytime even 1/100 th that. and my criteria for a foot are much more stringent than a foot at time of death. it is that foot today, tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. such a pity all that never to be done ever again knowledge is blown off as not worhy and instead some minor egg head stuff taken as reality. mm mmm mmm. whatever, no sweat off my back.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 9:47:50 GMT -6
p.s. remove a monetary stimulous and "studies" become b.s. . always happens. the guy with his money on the barrelhead never fudges or lies.
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Post by sdfoxtrapper on Jul 9, 2010 9:55:03 GMT -6
From an engineering perspective:
For a given trap with the same springs using either a fat jaw (laminated) or a thin jaw the same "force" will be applied to the animals foot. However in the case of the fat jaw that force will be distributed over a larger area.
Force/area = pressure
So the pressure applied to a foot will be lower on a fat jaw but the "force" applied to the foot will be the same on either type of jaw. Less pressure should relate to less soft tissue damage. The ruler analogy is not that bad. It demonstrates something called the moment of inertia or the section modulus of a beam which determines the deflection of a beam under load.
Theoretically the "holding power" (which is the clamping force x the coefficient of friction between the 2 surfaces) of a given trap with thick jaws and the same trap with thin jaws will be exactly the same, at least for a rigid object held between the jaws. This is because the frictional force developed only depends on the coefficient of friction and the normal force. It does not depend on the size of the contact area.
For a deformable object held between the jaws this may not hold true since the geometry (angles) between the held object and the stationary jaws will change, ie the thinner jaw may dig deeper into the soft tissue and a "bulge" may develop underneath the jaws which will be harder to remove.
Also a thinner base plate/frame or jaw will have more flex (deflection) under load and therefore it will act as a spring (shock absorber/spring) just the same as an inline spring. If you are using a thick base plate and thick cast jaws I would think it would be more important to have an inline spring since you would have no built in shock isolation in the trap.
All of which is IMO, of course.
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Post by garman on Jul 9, 2010 10:37:45 GMT -6
Bob this is not a dig at your knowledge, degree, credibility, etc. This is also about what I have seen on a limited # but a # big enough to be credible in a study, as well as my college classes in stats, physics, and biology. But I will not argue I choose to spend the extra money...Foolish me, I guess I will always be foolish, but I earn my money the hard way and I will spend it that way and the way I see fit. Family first, funtime second.
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Post by ohioandy on Jul 9, 2010 10:45:02 GMT -6
Sdfox, i would consur wih your engineering analysis...
I think about it in those same terms whenever the discussion of stock v. laminated jaws start. That is the way the engineering school trained us. ; )
Based upon your analysis, it essentially concurs with Bob's finding in his experience. He is finding less damage with his padded jaw traps. With the wider face, there is less pressure being applied to the foot over the period of time the foot is in the trap.
Where you lost me abit was in the need for a shock spring on a laminated, base plated trap and the shock absorber properties of an stock trap. Do you really believe that the animal is going to flex the stock trap enough for there to be a noticable difference between the stock and modded trap? From an engineering standpoint, you are technically correct in your assertion. However, the actual flex and/ or deflection of the material will be minimal at best and likely negligible. IMO of couse. : )
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 11:16:19 GMT -6
garmen, wasn`t even adressing you, so relax. but, why not just go short chain and eliminate any need? no cost, weigght, stuff to bury or tote around. pumping you say? just bigger stake or cross stake or cable. sd, further on the softy, it molds somewhat to the foot, so not puting a disproportionateramount of the pressure on the high spots, like bones, that won`t give. why you steel trap guys see the little holes across the top of the foot right over the foot bones. if you havn`t seen it, you havn`t trapped, maybe at all.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 11:18:29 GMT -6
p.s. would ask again, what strudies, or you mean your personal experiences rather than any published work? if so, miles and numbers are indeed relevent to credibility. not your credibility, the "studies" credibility.
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Post by garman on Jul 9, 2010 11:37:11 GMT -6
short chain? i have done that, like long chain better for setting, I have a belief I get more coyotes in remakes with longer chains, But as I always stated I could be wrong, I know that since I have went to this style of yote trapping the coyotes have come alot easier. I never thought you were addressing me, but you are addressing my belief system as well. I believe what works for you does work Bob, but you have had many years and miles to perfect it. Little things that you may do and do not even think about come into play.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 12:17:07 GMT -6
could be. but what about long chains makes setting easier? there is more to bury, more to mess with. and you always need a fresh set next to the remakes to get the fast regular repeat. even if 9 rings and a 10th fresh set.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 9, 2010 12:23:52 GMT -6
SDfox, hence the reason that you add power to a thicker and heavier jaw with more offset, as the critter can handle that extra spring rate as it is spread over a wider area. The amount of pressure is the same but not concentraited into a smaller area, one finds with a tinner jaw with less offset. Is this the correct lione of thinking? It seems very reasonable. If you say take a wooden bat and put it on your stomach and add 70 lbs onto the end of the bat it will concentrait that weight all in one spot feeling alot worse, than say laying a 2ftx 2ft plywood board over your stomach and adding that same 70lbs. Then one could add more weight to the plywood before the force would feel or do the same amount of damage correct? Becuase it is spread out over soft tissue and not as concentraited in one spot.
A rubber jaw has more flex and give creating movement more so than a solid jaw, allowing the critter to have more foot movement between the jaws. Unless you do as JC does and adds enough spring rate to limit that movement.
Take a trap say with 12" of chain and jerk on it with a clinched fist hold the end in one and hand and the trap in the other, now take that same trap add the schock spring which adds length even and jerk on it and see if you can tell a differance. They help with stake force that being the power applied to the stake head on a lung and they also allow some absorbtion to the coyote, that isn't an opinon at all.
If your running short chain and checking every trap you have by 8am and double staking then you probably won;'t see enough advantage to warrant a shock spring. Not everyone does this though, so they have merit for some people.
If you think they are a waste then so be it, but try running your truck down the road with no shocks and see if you can tell a differance same principle in a looser form. The longer chains I agree helps far more than 6-8" as they can't apply as much force with less momentum.
17hmr again taking things to the extreme, I did not say all of them and I look closely at feet and the jaws to determine what if any foot movement I have had. Also remember the older sterling where not center mounted but on the end and that showed me alot as well, as to what traps have more movement and which ones do not. I have plenty that are off center or towards one corner or the other in center mounted traps. One can look at the foot and the inside jaw face to see what is happening or not.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jul 9, 2010 12:25:47 GMT -6
I don't. Have friends that do. I can't see where they hurt anything. The Conner one is a nifty little gadget. At the cost of them and coyotes, I'm sure I could buy more coyotes than they will save me. I too like short chains.
I can't see where shock springs hurt anything. I also don't see them helping with a short chain set up.
Garman I've seen where they wouldn't enter a burn circle, not all but a few. I'm missing your thought on longer chain though. Doesn't it just make the circle bigger and he'd still have to enter that circle? I'm probably just reading that wrong. No matter, if it works we do it and sometimes don't care "why".
I have some regular coiled springs here that I think about putting on long chained grappled coon traps. My thought is give the coon something to "work on" until I get there. I never remember to install them while prepping traps. '
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 9, 2010 12:26:14 GMT -6
BOb long chains helps setting in this reguard for me, I dig a trap bed go to pound a stake 6" down hit a big ol rock, short chain setup won't get me off that rock, extra chain as times will without having to dig another bed.
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Post by garman on Jul 9, 2010 12:32:53 GMT -6
wright there is a thought, right or wrong, that yotes are more likely to enter a bigger catch circle, the coyotes fell more comfortable with it. May or may not be true, but seemed they entered more regularly with longer chains 24" or so. Setting is easier cause with my hands I can put the trap on my knee with longer chain, that is what I meant. I believe what I am getting at, I can get these shock springs used from time to time dirt cheap or free. I put them on I believe they help... let em put it in terms most of us can understand, stake your trap one with no spring and one with, set the trap, then let the trap go off on your mansack, then take off running see which one hurts the least LOL
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 9, 2010 12:41:05 GMT -6
I think with a larger catch circle can be an eye appeal and also I think the smells of the previous one caught isn't as concentrated as much as a smaller catch circle either. I can remake on the edge of that circle and have seen good results with this technique with a larger circle as well, provided your using the smelled up dirt from the circle and not pin pointing the odor on the trap. It seems the edge can be more easy for some of them to work rather the middle at times as well.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jul 9, 2010 12:47:55 GMT -6
I'll take your word on that last part lol.
I had thought of extending the chain for those shy ones. Never did though, but do hammer in a fresh one AND leave the remake.
Caught a dbl of red coyotes last season like that. Farmer took pic with me holding one each hand and both still in traps. That's my closest dbl ever. I figure if I pull that "dirty" trap it definatly will not produce, so leave it until I leave that location.
Hey, raining right now, and temp drop maybe 10 degrees, horay.
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