|
Post by bluetickkid33 on Jul 1, 2010 0:31:10 GMT -6
In many posts people speak highly of trap power. I understand that power in a trap is key, but where is the line drawn between powerful and overpowered? What are the pros and cons of 4 coiling especially where there is about 50 50 fox and coyote?
Cody
|
|
|
Post by jsevering on Jul 1, 2010 4:42:23 GMT -6
to me anyhow for canines if a trap is overpowered and has the capability of reaching full lock up utilizing an offset like on the sterlings, for an example in so much that once lock up is achieved and the springs aren't applying more pressure to the foot its a good thing and ill take the power...
dont particularly like an overpowered narrow offset or regular jawed trap that isnt capable of reaching lockup.... but that being said there are different 4 coil set ups like jc's that don't over necessarily look to overpower the trap, so much as to help get the loose spring going some... just an opinion, sure there's plenty others out there.... jim
|
|
|
Post by JWarren on Jul 1, 2010 15:09:11 GMT -6
I think more land animals are lost from too much power than too little, if your covering freezes a jake trap isn't going to bust through, if your covering isn't frozen a worn out floppy spring trap seems to catch them just as good, with the proper desinged trap mechanical design gives holding power not spring strength, like most of trapping these days the 4 coil crazy probably caught more trappers than furbearers
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 1, 2010 19:46:00 GMT -6
Jwarren is off base. PM me if you like bluetick . Lost from too much power only comes when you try adding that power to inferior design traps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Proper offset, proper jaw width and added weight all need more power. Frozen cover means NO trap is working like crusting far different. Please tell me of the proper designed mechanical trap that needs no extra power from 4 coiling? Most factory traps have to narrow of a jaw, to thin of a jaw, and to sharp of a jaw. Hence the lamination aspects. A wide jaw with the proper power will have far less foot movement than a narrow thin jawed trap. The mechanical advantage comes from the modifcsations done or buying a trap of high quaility to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by mickm on Jul 1, 2010 20:05:37 GMT -6
I honestly do not believe four coiling is needed.I strongly agree with Jwarren that most of this stuff, including 4 coiling and hi dollar traps, is designed to trap trappers.
From what I have seen it's just not needed.
Bluetick, do you have 24 hour check in your area? The only reason I ask, is that I just don't see the need for it on 24 hour checks.
I don't do the others, so I don't know.
|
|
|
Post by bluetickkid33 on Jul 1, 2010 20:13:12 GMT -6
Yes i do have a 24 hour check.. The traps i was mainly talking about was modified bridger #2s some offset some not.. Some came 4 coiled when i bought em so i dont know if i should leave em on.. This Thread Was meant to be more in General for Everyone to think about
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 1, 2010 21:06:20 GMT -6
Bluetick here is a fun test for you to run have some modified and leave others stock and look at the results and post back!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Jul 1, 2010 23:59:35 GMT -6
3n
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 2, 2010 5:22:38 GMT -6
the 3n in its day was a decent coyote trap but I can tell you for coyotes jaw spread was on the small side and many had escapes from the 3n, jaws not tight anf flexing. For it's time it caught alot of coyotes no doubt but the 3n lost it's share as well. Many will tell you the same.
The 3n versus a sterling, modified bridger, coyote cuff or a jake No contest as to what will hold a higher % of coyotes and work better in all weather conditions. The 3N was the trap Glen SR was using back in the 70's that led him to build the sterling MJ series. You can mod a 3n and make them better but your still on the smallish size of jaw spread for coyotes. Plus the offset is not really ideal for a coyote foot either and one needs to move the chain to the bottom of the trap IMO.
|
|
|
Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Jul 2, 2010 5:57:06 GMT -6
Your traps are fine traps no doubt but I'd use 3n's modified the way I like them.
I don't like the Bridger, cuff, or jake as well for the reason you mention, I think they are a bit to big and heavy. I haven't trapped coyotes on purpose for years but I've caught cats in all the aforementioned traps and they catch them halfway to the elbow. I think I get more injury from the heavy traps when the cats get tangled in trees and brush. There are some that think the extra weight wears them out quicker which is a good point.
I'm seeing a lot of the western cat guys ditching the coils and using longs, especially for uncovered sets with modified pans.
The guys that work it the hardest seem to go small or to longs nowadays. 1.65 Bridgers and 1.75's are very popular. When a cat can see where to put his foot and the trap doesn't need to come up through anything they are all that is necessary.
The only time I use a big coil is if I'm going to bury a set or if I think it's gonna snow a lot.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 2, 2010 6:24:14 GMT -6
a modified bridger?
so all other non sterling traps are junk- except a modifed briedger-
I'm no trap junkie, but do own a few Bridgers- can't see what all the hype is- if I liked them, I'd have more of them.
as beav says- the trap is just a tool- each to their own.
|
|
|
Post by mickm on Jul 2, 2010 6:25:06 GMT -6
Bluetick, I don't think I would un-modify them.
I just think folks sweat these things too much.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 2, 2010 6:27:48 GMT -6
I think a lot of it is trappers mindset mick- some look at traps like they are the Holy Grail, others look at them as simply a tool and don't get emotionally attached to them.
|
|
|
Post by thebeav2 on Jul 2, 2010 7:41:18 GMT -6
I can tell you this a 4coiled trap is a no no In the lve market game. Way to much UNSEEN damage.
|
|
|
Post by mickm on Jul 2, 2010 7:57:03 GMT -6
Well he also asked about fox.
Wouldn't a four coiled #2 Bridger be too much for a red?
We only have reds in town here.
|
|
|
Post by Wright Brothers on Jul 2, 2010 9:35:41 GMT -6
The last batch of 1 1/2 coil springs I bought have long spring pins. Still scratch my head over that. Add secondary springs there and see big trouble. Same with half modified traps, race cars, bikes, lots of mechanical things. Halfarsed can be bad. You don't see these trap modding guys selling traps that are half modded.
I believe I have found "the line" of where more spring is needed with the traps THAT I use. To sit here and type about it would be useless, as the mechanics of my traps are not the same as everyone else's.
Spring force, leverage, traveling weight, angles etc can all be broken down into numbers. THAT, would be interesting to me if done so by those guys that were talking about that computer aided design stuff.
If those numbers were crunched for every trap model, we would still argue because some would see that their "emotionally attached" (I like that) traps were not all they were cooked up to be. Do those numbers need to be crunched? No, not for the operator who knows his tools. For the inventor or designer? Yes, big time.
The less weight, both traveling weight and stationary weight, the least spring strength needed, and animal comfort until I get there are things I think of.
Yeah I know I over Analise things, so did those guys that invented the airplane. I also know that every airplane you guys have been up in, flew.
|
|
|
Post by JWarren on Jul 2, 2010 9:44:41 GMT -6
I think I get more injury from the heavy traps when the cats get tangled in trees and brush. . exactly why I went to the 1.5 on cats, I've held several 35lb toms in them with full pad catch no problem, just watch the big trap pictures on cats -usually the foot is as big as a grapfruit or the leg is bending in directions it isn't supposed to check out the wolfer nation videos where clint locklear uses 8-9" jawspread traps on cats, talk about compensation
|
|
|
Post by Zagman on Jul 2, 2010 11:06:45 GMT -6
I drank the bigger is better/more power is better Koolaid years ago. Where Bluetick kid lives is not far from me...... We have to have TOP 10 WORST CANINE TRAPPING WEATHER here in our state...... Tons of rain, tons of snows, tons of both on the same day. Clay soil.....200-500 inches of snow annually. My belief has always been that the power I "need" has NOTHING to do with holding the coyote. Heck, I had caught several hundred coyotes in two coiled 1.75's before my Koolaid drinking.... For me, and the Kid, it would be very common during Oct/Nov canine trapping to make a set in dry weather.....but that does not last. Count on it, it will rain on that trap. Then, possibly have a temperature drop that some time in the night semi-freezes things......then more rain turning to frozen moisture, so on and so on. It is VERY common to have a muddy, half frozen trap bed with one or two inches of wet, heavy snow on the pattern. Now, I know, I know.....for the trap to go off, the pan has to go down.... In those instances, the pan DOES go down....I am not talking about a totally frozen trap, I am talking about a muddy, partially frozen, covered with heavy, wet snow pattern. Now, if that pan DOES go down....the trap WILL go off. Set a trap off covered in snow and mud and tell me how '"fast" it is compared to a trap going off with just nice sifted dry dirt on it? Now, tell me where the coyotes paw is on a snow covered pattern vs. stepping on a clear pattern. With 1-2 inches of snow or even slightly more, the paw compresses the snow, but the paw still HAS to be higher above the pan then on a traditional dry pattern with only 1/4th inch or so of dry, sifted dirt. So, I need something to bust up through mud and snow, and that four coiling COMBINED with a larger jaws spread simply increases my odds that IF the trap goes off, it WILL reach up through the slop and grab something. I dont care if it is one toe.....I will take it over nothing! Not long ago, I posted a bunch of pics of "toed" coyotes....lots of them were in the snow, I think the scenario I just painted happens and causes many these toed coyotes. So, over the course of a season, perhaps I only need this powerful trap for a short time compared to normal dry weather. Since I dont own a crystal ball and have no idea what kind of weather I will have, I need to deploy a system that is ready for when it does happen.......as it is imminent. It WILL happen. Count on it. All the mods, offsets, shocksprings, swivels, power, etc are NOT needed for every coyote, in my mind. They are needed on a percentage, but since I cannot predict the weather or which coyote is going to be toed, EVERY tool needs to be available for this job duty. Like insurance, or even four wheel drive.....you dont need it all the time, but those few instances you do need it, you are happy you prepared accordingly. This is how I look at my coyote traps...... Welcome to October in New York! You can see what Rusty thinks of the weather...... After the rain..... Next day, froze that night....ice on the water....still catching.... Fun stuff! Zagman
|
|
|
Post by 17HMR on Jul 2, 2010 11:22:34 GMT -6
Im glad I dont live there..... LOL
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 2, 2010 12:56:19 GMT -6
Tman the reason I talk about the bridgers is becuase they have thicker metal than other brands, they have the jaw spread more in line with the size on the pan a #3 is really a #3. I like the idea of a riveted frame versus a spot welded frame, I like the end of the frame is bent down to better aid in bedding and holding beefer springs. I like how high the levers go versus other brands. I like a true offset versus a lugged offset. I like the fact the base plate has thicker metal than other brands. I like that the srping pins come long enough tojust add extra beefer springs and not have to purchase another spring pin. I like the fact that the main springs wrap around behind the levers and becuase they have a thick base plate and thicker than norm jaw materials I find no need to turn up the jaw ends or bubble them with weld, I have never had a coyote pop a jaw on a bridger #3 that has been laminated. The down falls are of course they need lamination, they need a base plate, they need better j hooks, you need to inspect the chain that comes on them, I have had pans damage, so I switched them out to PIT systems. These are the reasons for sterlings,coyote cuffs and jakes you just buy them and go. They last a lifetime and then some and have much higher resale value if the need would ever arrise. I have sterlings that are 20 years old that I could sell for more than I paid for some used and also others I bought new that would net me 80% or more in resale value. All good reasons for using these trap types IMO. As far as cats I have never seen the problems some have I guess using high end heavier traps, it is all about the swivels and the proper offset, that keeps the foot from looking like a grape fruit, no different than coyotes. I have released plenty of spring/summer caught cats to live to see another day with little problems. Frozen feet all together different but the end result is no live market for bobcats
|
|