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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 7, 2010 13:47:59 GMT -6
Pan tension does relate in how deep a catch one has over time IMO. Not all are perfect when applying pressure to the pan, so I have always favored pan tnesion on coyotes. It also helps with non targets as well. Without it my rabbitt catch would be higher I have No doubts about that, I use 3lbs of pan tension on my coyote traps. A crisp/short throw with good pan tension is what I have found leads to much deeper holds, in fact many of my toe catches shown are in traps that don't have the pan tension due to being lax on the filing durring the busy times.
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Post by tomsnare on Jun 7, 2010 20:49:57 GMT -6
I like the pan to set below the jaw I don't know what the tension is, at three pounds I would probably miss some fur---I want whoever shows up------Tom
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Post by deanchapel on Jun 7, 2010 22:50:57 GMT -6
One year I read an "expert's" opinion that the notch should be filed shallow... fewer toe catches that way. I had more freakin' toe catches after that than you could count. Spent half of the rest of the winter re-filing and adjusting the pans again. Never again! I like a deep notch and slight pan tension, whatever my opinion is worth.-----Dean
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 8, 2010 5:14:26 GMT -6
Dean what ever works but I'm betting your shallow notch had little in the way of pan tension?
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Post by trappnman on Jun 8, 2010 7:57:30 GMT -6
it does and it doesn't-
it does in the way that there is 100% non creep on the trigger- most causes of poor catches do to pans misfiring, aren't from tension in my opinion, but from creep
it doesn't in that it adds no spring increase, but it does give you a steady pan tension. pretty hard to set any trap beyond a #2, that has proper springs, and be under 3 lbs tension at center of pan
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jun 8, 2010 8:36:19 GMT -6
ONE of the things I do not like about short latch.
On a dogged trap move the pan up and down. Feel that slop when you change direction, that slop makes it tough to get consistant tension. After set, If pan is pulled down, that slop is gone. Even after drilling and changing to bigger bolt there's still a little slop.
I like a little pan tension. I noticed after remakes if the trap had less tension I didn't like the results. I now carry 6" visegrips and a small screwdriver and adjust WHEN needed.
That stuff might seem anal to some, its what works for me and I seen the results. That set of mine in Tracys' book was one. It caught every check and when it was a light weight nontarget, that was bad. Tension back up, game back on.
I'll put roller bearings in the pan next. Now THAT'S anal lol.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 8, 2010 12:31:13 GMT -6
Tman pretty hard to set a trap beyond a size #2 that doesn't have 2 lbs of pan tension?
I don't think so unless you add pan tension, I'm using a sullivan pan device to check mine and I had plenty under #2, 4 coiled bridgers until I made changes. If you basing that off of some of your montanas that is becuase they come pretty decent as is for pan tension but not standard 2 coiled dog on traps with a pan bolt. It is about the fulcrum design and placement, but standard coil springs with standard pans and dogs and a free falling pan won't get you there, to verify this I checked a few bridgers I have that have not been modified for pan tension I get 1 3/4# 4 coiled at best with the few I have. I then used the device on PIT pans and dogs the differance is the pan is free falling but the fulcrum point is far different than a standard pan I get almost 3.5lbs on those I tested in a 4 coiled manner.
You can get rid of that slop by closing the dog eyes as some of your slop comes from there moving back and forth, I file a dog tooth notch in my bridgers the tooth in the pan post and the receiving line on the dog just like a sterling. Very,vert little creep and darn close to the 3 lb line on my pan tension device.
The beauty of PIT you can forget the pliers and vice grips and the files.
A pan tension device will open manys eyes, until I bought one I was off from 1/2lb to a full lb on my thoughts of how much pan tension I had. Plus I had to file some deeper on my setup to get closer to 3#. Again this rate really helps with non targets and deep holds.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jun 8, 2010 13:09:43 GMT -6
The dog eye has nothing to do with the slop in the pan, bolt, pan shank area. Perhaps Bridgers are not that way I don't know, never tuned one.
Yes I do close the dog eye, and know others that prefer it open so they can take up pan heigth adjustment easier in the field after remakes by tapping the dog eye back or forth. And that made sence to me and had me ask myself if the pan notch could actually drag the dog eye slop with it. I suppose with the right fulcrum or miles notch it could but I have not seen that happen on the ones I have tuned.. Right wrong or indifferent we do what works for us and take things from othres (here) that can help us.
And I couldn't agree more about tension helping with nontargets. And to the mod on another forum that cussed me out saying that pan tension will not help avoid cotton tail rabbits in Pa. I say to you that you are full of nuts up to your ears.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jun 8, 2010 13:14:06 GMT -6
Pan tension...shman tension. How the heck are you going to catch cool mixed doubles like this with all that darn pan tension...LOL.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jun 8, 2010 13:20:23 GMT -6
Of all people, Coonduke the super tuner of traps. What's up with that? Targeting weasel? lol
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 8, 2010 14:05:49 GMT -6
actually the dog eye can add pan slop when using a miles notch/dog tooth notching system as the first thing to move with such will be the dog eye forward before the pan falls if you have slop in the dog eye. I close all dog eyes and with heavy dogs no need to leave room for movement.
I know empty/snapped traps are a rare occurance for me with pan tension and solid bedding.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jun 8, 2010 16:48:22 GMT -6
A lot of things can add pan tension. One of the big ones for me is rain wetting the soil covering the trap and when it gets dry and crusty it adds "tension" so to speak. Frost can compound this. Another thing is after a catch the shank/post area can be vunerable to rust adding more tension. Add all this up plus tension added by the bolt and nut and you can start to run into misses with fox pups and grays.
In my opinion, and I am probably in the minority on this, using the right size trap with sufficient springs to come up through covering will do a lot more to get good catches than anything. Zagman once told me a story about him snapping a trap in muddy conditions and it came up in slow motion. This is something I witnessed time and time again after him clueing me in on it. Using good springs will cut down on toe catches for this reason. Common sense says using a bigger trap will get you deeper catches.
What I feel pan tension will greatly help is snapped traps due to rakers/scratchers. I think a lot of toe catches are from the animal raking it's paw over the trap and it popping out and grabbing it by a toe or two. I think we catch more like this than we realize.
I see a trend from using hay sets. I get very few toe catches. The nature of the set does not provoke digging, and there is no covering for the trap to come up through. Also, once the canine commits to the set it is not soft stepping like it would be in front of a hole with odor coming out of it.
If I were in a coyote only siutation, I would definitely run tension to reduce snapped traps from scratching and to cut down on non targets. In my situation with my soils and weather and target animals, adding extra tension can cause me some misses so I don't use it.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 8, 2010 18:22:00 GMT -6
coon duke try #3 lbs of tension and tell me how many fox over 10 lbs you have with a print on the pattern and no fox! I once caught a swift fox with 3 lbs of tension lucky if that fox was 4 1/2 lbs total. The trick is to keep them interested to apply the weight needed on to the pan, make them commit and not a big deal.
The few fox complaints I get, I don't have fox traps I use my #3 bridgers and sterlings they catch and hold fox! They snap on coons,badgers and even a skunk or two LOL. My key is solid traps and make the pan the perfect spot for any of them to commit the majority of their weight too.
You won't have the shank/post issue if running PIT pans. The bolt and nut are IMO simply a very poor choice for pan tension in "most"cases. The jakes I have are some different because of the double leg system and vinyl nut and extra washer. Far more consistant I can see it from the design.
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Post by 17HMR on Jun 8, 2010 19:30:32 GMT -6
How do you get more tension out of you sterlings? My doz all seem to trip at 1.75 on Hal's device.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 9, 2010 5:00:56 GMT -6
keep your notches filed to a crisp edge.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Jun 9, 2010 7:32:12 GMT -6
Can sympathise with rain frost thaw freeze. The monty dogless gave me heavy tension fits that way and showed me the slomo thing. After deer a different season than before, weather wise. I get winter here. "If I were in a coyote only siutation", and if rat/mink ran to the end I'd creek trap late. But we get what we got aye.
Tuning Kips traps was a learning of different "theories". He's a lighter tension guy too, I suspect the calcium days spawned that. He showed me the open dog eye too, said Blue English showed him.
Later at Bobcat Jacks shop I commented on Jacks giant dog eye loop, as an expert machinest he is a real picky sort. He had an expresion like Kip held out info on him, we laughed. Wish Kip would get on here more, he's trapped a couple nights. Too dang busy though.
Rakers,, I blend a lot, always did. Probably more sets than not. I'd think dog toward hole would help some with rakers, I don't set that way, more food for thought for me.
I plain stink at hay sets, old style chaff or trash pile great but the FTW/AC or whoever hay sets get deer trouble here, or they used to. Digger showed a demo last fall that did click some stuff for me on those. The demo was taped, maybe he'll show it sometime.
CD that area of pic looks so familiar it scares me.
That notch trigger, Miles or whatever. When Lynxcat showed that I thought there it is, tension from a different area than the bolt or fulcrum. Of a hundred files on my property not a dang one fits that application. I really do got to experiment there.
Great thread folks. Someone elses turn.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 9, 2010 7:37:07 GMT -6
pan size makes a difference in tension as well-
you measure at the dog, in the middle and at far edge, you will have 3 different tensions.
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Post by makete on Jun 9, 2010 7:47:42 GMT -6
I've got a head ache. LOL.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 9, 2010 16:33:44 GMT -6
Tman all measurements where done at the middle of the pan. Middle can very a little but not by much your edges all around change as you increase pan size another reason for a pan that fits nicely with the jaw design.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 10, 2010 6:36:17 GMT -6
yes, by much-
I've seen it many times -2 lbs difference from dog edge, to pan edge.
I tested a lot of traps that way for S & G years ago- the difference can be staggerring.
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