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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 24, 2009 14:17:39 GMT -6
The powder breaks down the metal of the can overtime, the reason they switched to plastic. I'm betting that powder was at least 3 years old or more? Different powders have different chemicals and amounts som are harsher than others on metal storage cans.
If I see powder for sale in metal cans I don't touch it means it is older stuff I think the plastic containers have been around for a few years.
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Post by Furhvstr on Sept 24, 2009 17:43:36 GMT -6
So after I removed the bad can of powder I put all the rest of the IMR powder back into the tub along with a piece of brass and after several days no problems. The powder is years and years old. Some perhaps 15 or more. TC38- are you saying that IMR powder is now sold in plastic? I haven't bought nor used IMR for years.
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Post by FWS on Sept 24, 2009 18:13:30 GMT -6
It is, but IMR was bought by Hodgdon's several years ago and Hodgdons is also licensed to produce Winchester powders, so now they all use the same Hodgdons black plastic container.
I'm not sure there was an issue with powder in metal cans as DuPont and Winchester/Olin were doing it for a century and I have many cans of both in metal cans, including some that is WW2 vintage surplus and and some from the 70's.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 24, 2009 19:25:11 GMT -6
they all used to use metal who does today? No one. All plastic.
You can't get rusty broke down powder in plastic. The chemicals in the powder will react with steel over time and gives off issues you seen on your brass from the oxzidation of the steel can.
Others have had the same problem but plastic is a much longer and safer shelf life.
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Post by FWS on Sept 24, 2009 23:32:34 GMT -6
Plastic containers are cheaper to manufacture and weigh less, thus cheaper to ship.
And Goex black powder still comes in a metal can.
I haven't had that happen in the steel IMR or Winchester cans.
And I've been reloading for 32 years.
Provide a link or a reference for that.
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Post by lb on Sept 25, 2009 1:24:31 GMT -6
It is possible that fire regulations and shipping codes had or have something to do with why IMR and Winchester used metal containers? I know that this appears to be a rust related contamination, but the actual reason has not been determined.
You get oxidation in ferous metal and it's generally caused by water, not solvents. Hodgdons used cardboard when I started handloading in the sixties. The steel in those IMR cans is plated, tin or cadmium probably(?) and has soldered seams, there is an endless combination of chemical compounds possible once some moisture is introduced?
I don't see age as a major factor in this particular case?
The photos of the cabinet shows it to be neat and tidy and not water stained, but as Mercer said, it IS in a laundry room so now we have detergent compounds and a heat source via the dryer. I think that if "vapor" is the culprit, then condensate, rather than a leaky water pipe, or.....hell, who knows?
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Post by Furhvstr on Oct 13, 2009 22:23:38 GMT -6
Sooo, not wanting to throw away 300 rds of fully prepped and primed .223 brass. Being too lazy to de-cap and hand polish the oxidation off of them and having more faith in the sturdiness of modern primers than some people I decided to put them back in the tumbler to get the roughness off and load up twenty rds to check for missfires and such. All went well at the range. All twenty went down range with no problems and I nearly shot the best group of my life with a sporting rifle. A fully custom rig this .223 is one of the better shooting guns in my safe but even I was a little surprised when the first four went in the same hole. As could be expected I sent the fifth out and fouled it up. Here is a pic of the group and the ugly rounds that I wil be shooting this year. Take care, ML
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Oct 14, 2009 8:00:38 GMT -6
FWS look at his brass from the metal cans and those from the plastic that should answer your question on metal or plastic.
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Post by Furhvstr on Oct 14, 2009 15:34:37 GMT -6
So a phone call to Hodgdon resulted in the following answers to the thread related Q's. I will try to relay them to the best of my ability/memory.
The powder is now in plastic primarily as a result of the purchase of Dupont by Hodgden in 2003. It was far easier for them to simply use what their factories already had in place. Other minor reasons were, cost, cans rusting in storage BEFORE have powder in them, screen printing the cans and such. IT HAD ABSOLUTLY NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with ANY reactions from the powder being in steel. Steel has been used for many many years. Now, as for the BAD powder. Yes, it was and had in fact gone BAD. ALL powder goes BAD at some point wether it be ten or sixty years and can at some point actually self ignite. Ball powders being the most stable. At this point the guy got to using some big words and was talking pretty fast but the jist of it was as follows: Making smokeless powder requires nitrating the cellulose with sulfuric and nitric acids. These are then rinsed away but because they cannot be rinsed away completely buffers are added. Over time the buffers begin to wear out and the powder begins to oxidize. As it oxidizes it developes a dust (rust) on each individual kernel and developes an odor. An odor which smells like ammonia, (which is what I said on page one and was chastised by someone on here about) These nitric acid vapors become increasingly stronger and will oxidize and rust anything around it and can potentially self ignite. (This could possibly explain an old timers garage nearly burning down years ago here in town when a five lb can of old military powder seamingly self ignited.) In the end I learned a few things and perhaps some on here did also. ML
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Post by SteveCraig on Oct 14, 2009 16:29:31 GMT -6
Thanks Mecer, I know I learned a thing or two.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Oct 15, 2009 6:18:55 GMT -6
acids and steel not a good mix IMO. I'm glad they switched to plastic.
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Post by lb on Oct 15, 2009 10:23:12 GMT -6
Yeah, on one level. But, (and I'm a bit hazy on the regs) around here, they keep empty containers out on the shelf, and the actual storage is in an approved metal locker. I kind of liked the way the flat cans stack on a shelf and I have never had a similiar problem as Mercer, and I'm sure I have had some IMR on hand for well over ten years maybe 15? I still think something caused the problem. Something other than three year old powder in steel cans.
Maybe not very smart, but I once bought a half full steel 5 pound IMR 4831 and used it for quite a few years in a 300 Mag, which I don't use very much, sighting in accounts for more than shooting at game. Anyway, it lasted a long time and I still have the can which I use for saving 45ACP brass until such time I have enough to make loading worthwhile, so I know the can is still in like new condition and it's right next to ? maybe twenty pounds of various smokeless powder, some of it in cans. But, it is in a room dedicated to reloading behind a locked door, no hot water or detergents, bleach, softeners, etc.
I'm pretty hardheaded. I think it is unlikely that the powder decomposed in a (tightly) closed container all by itself, if Mercer thinks he has had it for three years, or so? If that IS what happened, I think a lot more of us would have experienced it once in a while? And, I'm an old fossil, I started reloading with a Lee Loader in the sixties. I have never seen anything remotely similiar.
(that's 1960's, not 1860's)
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Post by Furhvstr on Oct 15, 2009 11:41:11 GMT -6
I never said three years. I think TC39 said something about three years in a post. My IMR is seldom used and all of it is at least ten years and most of it closer if not over twenty. The bad can had a price tag on it for 18 bucks or so and was from a sporting goods store in Fallon NV which doesn't even exist anymore. My best guess would be 1993 or so. LB, if you want to have an informative conversation with a very knowledgeable guy on the subject call over to Hodgdon. The guy I got was sharp as hell. He explained to a tee exactly what I had experienced before I could tell him the whole story. ABSOLUTLY no doubt in my mind that the powder had gone bad.
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Post by lb on Oct 15, 2009 13:25:02 GMT -6
Okay, sorry for the mistake, I knew somebody said something about three years, thought it was you? Gotta give us old farts a pass once in a while.
Also, I don't doubt that the powder had gone bad. I'm just unsure of the reason for it? As I said before, they were selling surplus World War II rifle powder for at least into the eighties that was probably manufactured prior to 1944? I think the method of storage has a lot to do with how long it lasts, which I always felt was almost indefinate, sealed container, or loaded in a cartridge, and properly stored.
It would be interesting to talk to Hodgdon, especially if he could give some figures on the incidence of occurance and they could read some serial numbers off the cans, you know? Like how long ago the majority of the bad powder was in the cans before it went bad? Assuming, most of it was in IMR or WW cans and not plastic or the paper cartons that Hodgdons used to use.
Anyway, this guy said that the powder was just sitting in a closed container and went bad, happens all the time, or did he characterize it as an extremely rare occurance?
LB
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Post by Furhvstr on Oct 15, 2009 14:08:19 GMT -6
Yes, he knew that it was in it's org container and had never been outside my possession and had never been subjected to any adverse conditions. I did not ask about frequency and did not get a feel for it either. His exact words were, "All powder goes bad. Whether in ten or forty or fifty" IMO life is full of things that we think are fact that are not. We learn things, are told things from elders and others we trust etc. etc. that over the years somehow become accepted as fact and not until questioned or explored do we find that they are either partially and sometimes completely wrong. I would say that in order to put this thing to rest someone needs to call another pwdr Co. and talk with their tech guy and see if we can confirm what they told me at Hodgdon. I nominate LB. Any seconds? If you have time there is an excellent you tube clip by Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs that speaks to this. (Not gun pwdr, things that we think are fact and are not) www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-udsIV4HmcIt is good stuff.
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Post by lb on Oct 15, 2009 19:37:06 GMT -6
I called Mary Kay and she didn't know what I was talking about, neither did Clinique? Walmart just hung up on me.
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Post by Single Shot 223 on Nov 16, 2009 21:57:16 GMT -6
Hi,
I am Twobaths & I used run an indoor ballistic range for the USAF When we wanted consistancy in our reloads, we would put the powder in an oven, with safety features of course, run the temp at 120 degrees for about two hours This would evaporate the moisture & your would obtain consistant pressures, & results Gun powder is very hydroscopic ( absorbs water)
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